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Braces in the UK when living abroad?

119 replies

dasza79 · 15/06/2024 12:50

Hi all!
We live abroad, left the UK a few years ago. My partner works for a British company and pays UK taxes and NI as well.
Both kids need braces, which are somewhat pricey where we live. I'm curious whether it's at all possible to get them in the UK and how to get round it? We still have an English address we use for some purposes (banking etc).
To clarify - I'm only thinking about it becasue we do pay our NI in the UK, I wouldn't do it otherwise.

OP posts:
notimagain · 15/06/2024 20:17

Ordinarily you pay taxes in the country in which you are resident. No way are you living overseas and paying tax and NI in the UK.

Wrong.

Depending on circumstances (e.g. employment type, contract details)you can be resident overseas, pay tax and social charges there and in addition can be liable for tax and NI in the UK…and no you don’t need to be in the mil or government related job, you can manage it in the private sector.

Absolutely no way can you legally live in Portugal and pay taxes in UK.

Do you have reference for that…lots of other EU countries (and others) certainly allow it.

Iwasafool · 15/06/2024 20:19

The other issue after your child qualifies, 2 of mine did, is if the orthodontist will take them on. One of mine was well into treatment when younger child qualified, orthodontist had a chat with him and explained what was involved and his responsibility with oral hygiene (she was very big on this and I'd heard her warning a child that if she didn't up her game the brace was coming off and that was the end of it.) At the end of the chat she asked him if he wanted to go ahead and he said no. She looked at me and said she wouldn't treat him if he wasn't prepared to commit and that was that.

stalecrayon · 15/06/2024 20:28

We are going through braces with DS at the moment. He had to qualify which he did but from consultation to braces fitted took about 6 months. He’s nearly at the end of his treatment now but has had appointments every 6-8 weeks for check ups. More if bits break or pop off. It’s very much a commitment with appointments.

dasza79 · 15/06/2024 20:32

firewooden · 15/06/2024 19:24

I understand your reasons for asking the question, it's actually quite an interesting topic!

However, doubt your children would get on an NHS dentist these days.

Out of curiosity, how much are the braces in Portugal? I've just had a quote for Invisalign coming in at £3900 and my teeth aren't too bad compared to some just my front two teeth seem to be starting to move forward and look like in a few years could be hanging out my mouth and the lower teeth have 2 moving forward.

Eye watering quote!
I haven't had my estimates yet, the dentist will send them to me soon with some suggestions of private insurance that could help towards it.
But I don't think it's nearly as much as private in the UK. My friend's son has palate extenders, they've paid 600€ and 50 per visit after that. I'm assuming the braces my daughter would like are the fancy ones (first time I heard about them was yesterday and still can't remember) and they can't be cheap. I'm sure it'll be less than 3K tho. Still, these are unexpected expenses and need to be prepared for. We should have known...

OP posts:
dasza79 · 15/06/2024 20:34

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Jersey cows are quite cute.

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dasza79 · 15/06/2024 20:38

Byronada · 15/06/2024 20:11

I've just read you're living in Portugal. Absolutely no way can you legally live in Portugal and pay taxes in UK.

And yet we've been doing just that for the past 4 years. If you really think that's incorrect I'm happy to give you my accountant's email so you can inform him. If we've been misled by him and the finanças then I'd rather sort it out now. Alternatively let's assume that I spend my time online making up stories about my tax life, a little kink of a bored housewife :-)

OP posts:
Angrymum22 · 15/06/2024 20:58

Unfortunately NHS claims are all electronic. Surprisingly a lot of the government systems are linked up, so if someone tries to claim for free treatment fraudulently they get caught and fined.

I have not come across any non-residents being caught out but we generally advise ex-pats trying to access NHS dentistry that it is against the rules and since they sign a form to say they are entitled to NHS treatment it is their responsibility to be honest. I don’t know if anyone has been fined and charged. But it is likely that the fee to the dentist is withdrawn. It would then be up to the dentist to charge the patient appropriately.

We just advise the patient that we are unable to see them under the NHS which at the moment applies to most people since we are not accepting new NHS patients.

QualityDog · 15/06/2024 21:09

I don't think £3900 is 'eye watering' at all. Braces require a lot of appointments over approximately a two year period.

We paid for one of our dc to have braces privately and dd2 had them on the NHS. Both at the same place. We had a choice of appointments for dd1 and so it was a relatively easy experience.

For dd2 you were given an appointment at the end of each visit and that was that. You were not allowed to make any changes and if you didn't go you were struck off. It probably cost us four grand in days off!

JamieFraserSporran · 15/06/2024 23:39

@dasza79 your info about Universities is years out of date as well. What you said is wrong and has been for over 15 years or more.

dasza79 · 16/06/2024 00:24

JamieFraserSporran · 15/06/2024 23:39

@dasza79 your info about Universities is years out of date as well. What you said is wrong and has been for over 15 years or more.

Is it? So what is the current requirement?

OP posts:
GrandHighPoohbah · 16/06/2024 06:27

The figures you're quoting for treatment costs in Portugal sound pretty reasonable to me, not at all outrageous. I thought you were going to say it's way more pricey than that. Even if your DC qualified for NHS treatment, which seems unlikely based on your residency status, I wouldn't be flying to the UK every 6-8 weeks for two years to avoid a total cost of only £3-4K.

Sloejelly · 16/06/2024 08:08

dasza79 · 15/06/2024 18:38

Right, I'm gonna end it here.
Thank you all for informative contributions - it does seem too difficult and problematic to do it this way, good to know and time to start planning ahead.
The rest - please, consider not wasting your time and refrain from expressing your moral stance on things when you're not asked about it. It's petty and stinks of religious zealotry. People differ in what they feel/think is right, and there are too many instances in the history, including the most recent one, where "legal" does not equal morally correct. We're free to make our own judgements internally and act upon them as we see fit.
Apologies for letting myself getting overheated on occasion. Ah, the internet...

The criminal courts are full of people who think the same. Judges give them short shrift.

JamieFraserSporran · 16/06/2024 11:24

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ScaredSceptic · 16/06/2024 11:54

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Completely unnecessary. Shame you can't disagree with someone without resorting to this.

dasza79 · 16/06/2024 12:13

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Charming.
I'm not entirely sure where do you think the attempts of cheating are?
Just looked it up - 3 years residency is a requirement, as I thought. Is your information different to that?
Your way of communicating is more in place somewhere like Reddit or X, I believe. Not amongst adults.

OP posts:
dasza79 · 16/06/2024 12:20

Admittedly I don't come to Mumsnet frequently, but so far this was always the place I felt possible to ask any questions and not receive the type of mindless mob attack you get elsewhere (Reddit being particularly bad for that). For me this has always been a place I expected other grown up women to respond in a grown up way, some would agree, others disagree, but never this lynching I'm witnessing just now. Yes, I have asked advice on how to drown my kittens and simultaneously set local town hall on fire...
It's disappointing to me. I know internet is a place where it's all too easy to resort to one's lowest in the comfort of anonymity, let the anger responses take over. Still, I hoped Mumsnet is more than another platform for insulting each other like school children.

OP posts:
dasza79 · 16/06/2024 12:32

GrandHighPoohbah · 16/06/2024 06:27

The figures you're quoting for treatment costs in Portugal sound pretty reasonable to me, not at all outrageous. I thought you were going to say it's way more pricey than that. Even if your DC qualified for NHS treatment, which seems unlikely based on your residency status, I wouldn't be flying to the UK every 6-8 weeks for two years to avoid a total cost of only £3-4K.

£3900 someone mentioned above is outrages to me (to others it isn't, I wish I could say the same!) 600€ isn't, I agree, but that's not my estimate, I don't know mine yet.
The theory was to get the braces installed on the UK and combine it with visiting family, and then do maintenance here, it was mostly inspired by my partner who is the one paying taxes in the UK and feels some return for them would be nice (some disagree with that sentiment).
But this thread helped me understand the intricacies of waiting for the appointments and all the logistics involved, which was helpful and was the information I was looking for. Certainly not the Spanish Inquisition demanding confessions of sinful thoughts 🙂
Perception of expense is very individual, isn't it? I came to understand that many Mumsnet users are in the higher middle class (maybe that's why some of them are happy to pay a lot of tax and then some more?). Those who are on lower income will understand better the drive to avoid bigger expenses.

OP posts:
bluecomputerscreen · 16/06/2024 12:38

assuming you pay health insurance in pt, won't they pay part of the cost?

we also pay 3.5k for a 3 year treatment plan. insurance pays half of it and for the rest we pay monthly.

LarissaFeodorovna · 16/06/2024 13:08

We're currently in the middle of exactly this situation, not through choice, but because dc3 was halfway through UK NHS orthodontic treatment when he turned 18 and left for university in another country (in Europe, so logistically similar to your situ).

For us there's no question of fraud or non-entitlement, since dc is ordinarily resident in the UK, and the course of treatment (hospital based) was initiated while still in education in the UK. For the last two years when he's been out of the UK the logistics have been a massive, massive PITA (and significant cost), and that's with us having got the really hassly bits out of the way while dc was still in the UK.

Even if your dc qualified on clinical grounds, which are extremely tight - basically it needs to be medically essential, not just aesthetic - in order to initiate treatment in the UK you would have multiple assessment appointments here. The orthodontist or hospital would also want the details of your NHS GP and UK dentist, as all the letters are copied to the GP and dentist, so that would likely be a problem if you're not registered with a UK GP practice.

If the issues are serious enough to merit hospital treatment, that will involve at least three initial assessment appointments plus multiple x-rays - the x-ray appointments are often completely separate from any of the other appointments, and then there's another follow-up appointment to discuss the X-ray, and so on and on. Then once any surgery and follow-up have been completed and the brace installed, you have an appointment every six weeks or so to adjust the wires, and that's without allowing for any emergency broken brace appointments (particular frequent in the early days when the whole system is under maximum tension). It's unrealistic to think that an orthodontic practice in another country would take over the routine wire adjustments, as they won't want to be involved in an existing course of treatment which they have not initiated and for which they don't have the clinical oversight. You MAY be able to get a local orthodontist to do emergency broken brace repairs, but that would be at their discretion. Then will definitely not carry out routine adjustments, as it's not their treatment programme. We tried to get dc's care transferred to the country where he is studying, and no orthodontist was prepared to consider it, even with supporting documentation and letters from the clinicians here.

We live an hour's drive away from the hospital where dc is being treated, and that was bad enough when he was in the UK - since he's been abroad it has been a major headache. Bear in mind that routine appointments are often cancelled or rearranged at short notice - we have had that happen multiple times when dc had already booked and paid for a flight. Depending on how long the course of treatment takes, even if you are willing to take on board the logistical nightmare of travelling to the UK every few weeks, the costs of flights/cancelled flights/overnight stays would soon rack up to be equal or greater than the cost of local treatment, as it's almost impossible to align cheap flight dates with available appointments.

tl;dr: your plan is almost certainly not feasible, and even if by some miracle you managed to pull it off, you would regret your choice very quickly.

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