MMR - is there any well respected, well researched evidence against it?

[bohemianbint]

I'm due to get DS (16 months) jabbed around about now, and I'm just trying to get my head around the whole thing.

I'm erring on the side of just doing it - I'm aware that the fella who started the autism rumours was a bit of a religious nutter by all accounts and has been discredited.

There seems to be a lot of studies from reputable sources that it is a Good Thing. Are there any non-speculative, non-hysterical articles based in fact which support not giving it?

Even though the more I read, the more I think it's fine (and I don't let anyone jab me or mine un-necessarily, there was no syntocin or vit K jabs when I had DS!) I'm still a bit worried and want to be as informed as possible before making a decision.

Your help would be appreciated! (I can't make any decision without Mumsnet. )

It wasn't about Andrew Wakefield's religious beliefs, it was just a poor, small scale study.

And no, there is no credible study that demonstrates a link between MMR and autism.

Thanks beansprout, speedy reply! Did anyone here choose not to give it? And if so, would you mind telling me why?

Well - we had syntocin and Vit K happily, but no MMR for my DS.

MMR is safe for the vast majority of children, however, for some children it is not safe. I personally know someone (not a relative) who got terrible bowel problems after her MMR and also there is autism in my family. On balance, I decided to get single jabs for my DS.

This is where I went:

www.breakspearmedical.com/files/mmr.html

I have read on MN that plenty of others have also been there.

It is hard to find totally unbiassed information. The government want all children to have MMR and I really don't think NHS employees are supposed to go against that. The only time I have heard of a consultant telling a parent not to get MMR for their child is when the parent has something like Crohn's disease.

Not that I'm aware of, I will say that my final decision to give my dd the MMR was based on the fact that ALL of the people I know that work in medical research (and I know a few) had their dcs MMRed after thoroughly looking into it. Which was enough to convince me that there is NO definitive research that links Autism with MMR. (Although I know there are people on MN who will disagree with that)

that anti-mmr research paper has been thoroughly discredited.

a good friend of mine is a leading immunology researcher and she advised me to go for it. i trust her implicitly.

thanks to people not vaccinating anymore, there's a big measles outbreak, which spells bad news for babies and pregnant women. such a shame because these diseases were nearly eradicated.

I am fed up of reading how Andrew Wakefield has been 'discredited' ..

yes by a government directive and media scrum

when you see what he is saying it is not actually something that can be easily discredited .. not easily .. he merely commented that in a percentage of regressive autism cases (less than 10% .. was it 7%) there may be a link with the measles vaccine strain from teh MMR and that this should be further investigated

discredited .. bolleaux

it hasn't though

See Richard Halvorsen's book, the name of which has slipped my mind (search recent posts by Yurt1).

warthog there wouldn't be a measles epidemic if those wanting the single measles vax were allowed it.

FWIW my DD will be having the single measles jab.

isn't there something about split vaccines given in Japan and it hasn't affected autism rates...or something...just remembering bits of information I heard recently - if anyone knows what I'm talking about? Pregnancy muddle...

I read that too Bohemianbint
Large study in Japan found that autism rates were still rising even though single jabs given there.

warthog - I don't think it is solely because people are not giving their DCs the MMR vaccine - I think it is because the government makes it so difficult to get the single jabs - saying that these places are using unlicenced drugs, improperly stored drugs etc. Therefore some people who are afraid of MMR do not get any jabs at all, when they would have been happy for their LO to receive single jabs if they thought they were safe. This is a serious controversy that has been around over a decade and won't go away. IMO, it is time for the government to licence single jabs and say, "We believe MMR to be safe, but if you are scared, then pay some extra money and get single jabs". The other timebomb this is storing up is loads of little girls will have no immunity to rubella when they eventually become pregnant in years to come.

One of the problems in making a reasoned case in this area is that it's emotive. I'm not trying to hold back on emotion in what follows, as those favouring non-vaccination (including delayed vaccination) don't. I'm not making apologies for my post below, but it's only fair to say that I'm approaching this one as a concerned parent.

There may be a risk from the MMR but it's never been established by anyone, anywhere. There is, however, credible evidence that measles and mumps can seriously screw up children. Before MMR came in, about 15 kids a year died from measles - and that's before the non-fatal problems.

Any vaccination may have side effects. There have been some adverse events following the MMR jab (through the "yellow card" system doctors use) but nothing that was significant when everything was reviewed, let alone commensurate with the risks posed by measles, mumps and rubella.

The story gets worse for the single/delayed vaccination camp when you consider the effects that your decision has on other people too. Not getting syntocin and vitamin K may affect your health or your baby's - not getting vaccinations (or inappropriate vaccinations) may lead to the deaths of other children as well as your own!

BB - the vast majority of autism is not due to MMR. Autism rates have increased massively so it is doubtful that these massive increases would be stopped by giving single jabs instead of MMR. The rise of autism is due to something else (don't know what). I think the number of children affected by MMR is statistically insignificant, but I don't want to risk it for my child.

it's not just the government.

10 of the 13 authors retracted the paper:

this is the beauty of science and the scientific community - theories such as wakefield's can be tested and proven. so far no-one has found any evidence to back up his claims.

SPOT ON pontipine

Different countries have panics about different vaccines - in Canada it's HIB or something that everyone freaks out about. In Italy it's a different one.

Letting someone stick a needle in your kid feels wrong and scary. If anything goes wrong with them soon afterwards, you're going to blame the needle. It's understandable, but it's not science.

I think a lot of panic is due to the fact that autism usually surfaces around the same time as the MMR jabs are given tbh.
And let's face it, autism is a diagnosed thing now, whereby in the less enlightened past, people would just say that a child was 'slow'. (nb; that is not MY opinion of autistic children that is just the way that people would treat them in those days).

symptoms of measles:

A harsh cough.
Trouble staying awake.
Difficulty in hearing.
Pain in the ears.

Occasionally, measles can lead to many different complications, including pneumonia and ear infections. However, 1 child in a 1000 with measles will go on to develop encephalitis or meningitis, which can be fatal or cause disabilities such as deafness.

I repeat my 19:19 post since everyone has chosen to ignore it

warthog there wouldn't be a measles epidemic if those wanting the single measles vax were allowed it.

According to Richard Halverson's book (and he is a GP with no axe to grind) the mumps part of the MMR does not give sufficient immunity. It wears off in less time than was originally anticipated. The danger of stopping small children getting mumps- which is a mild infection for them- is old people getting a very nasty infection which could kill them. This doesn't seem to be a reasonable trade.

There was more but I can't remember offhand.

My gp said it best when he said " read everything you can about it (vaccinations) and go with your gut instinct"

Everyone has a right to make a decision - just make it an informed one. I found tons of stuff when i was researching it (when ds wwas a baby) but wouldn't remember where to direct you.

good luck

Wakefield isn't a religious nutter!

I had my children vaccinated at the Breakspear too - have a look at their website, they have been offering singles for many years now here again

I also found this book helpful Guide

I think one of the reasons Andrew Wakefield was discredited was because it was found he had a vested interest in recommending single vaccines given that he owns the patents or one of the patents on them (was on panorama I think). Also he used some of the same children for 2 different research studies which was a potential conflict of interest - details here.

Both Drugs and Therapeutics Bulletin and the Cochrane Collaboration reviewed MMR and said (last time I checked - dunno if there have been any updates) that it is safe as far as they can tell BUT the safety studies were not sufficient - IIRC not enough of them and not well-designed. DTB and CC are independent, expert reviewers who really know their stuff.

Dept. of Health kept claiming epidemiological studies 'proved' MMR was safe. In fact, as the DH well knows, this type of study does not and cannot answer the questions raised by Wakefield's original research.

I'm not surprised 10 of the authors retracted the paper, how many people are prepared to stand up to the sort of pressure exerted on Wakefield? Not many people want to sacrifice their reputation, career and friendships to say something that is desperately unpopular. That's why, for instance, Glaxo was able to get away with suppressing vital evidence that the anti-depressant Seroxat was actually causing some patients to have suicidal thoughts...

I have no idea whether MMR is safe for every child and neither does anyone else, really. We just know it is probably safe for almost all children.

But if you have a family history of auto-immune disease, I'd think very carefully about it, and look up old MN threads by jimjams.

Richard Hortons book called MMR science and fiction is very interesting about the scaremongering behind MMR and how he regrets ever publishing Wakefields paper.