MMR - is there any well respected, well researched evidence against it?

[bohemianbint]

I'm due to get DS (16 months) jabbed around about now, and I'm just trying to get my head around the whole thing.

I'm erring on the side of just doing it - I'm aware that the fella who started the autism rumours was a bit of a religious nutter by all accounts and has been discredited.

There seems to be a lot of studies from reputable sources that it is a Good Thing. Are there any non-speculative, non-hysterical articles based in fact which support not giving it?

Even though the more I read, the more I think it's fine (and I don't let anyone jab me or mine un-necessarily, there was no syntocin or vit K jabs when I had DS!) I'm still a bit worried and want to be as informed as possible before making a decision.

Your help would be appreciated! (I can't make any decision without Mumsnet. )

The MMR has become such a political "hot potato" that it is unlikely that proper, independent studies will ever be done to evaluate the risk/benefits. The problem is, there are just too many vested interests and the pharmaceutical industry is unbelievably powerful. In addition, the Government would never want to support any research that could lead to successful litigation. The NHS policy towards any medically-induced illness is to deny its existence. This is essentially what has happened with parents who have seen with their own eyes the deterioration of their children's health following MMR and other jabs too.

Who knows whether the risks of jabs outweigh the benefits? I couldn't say - but I am not impressed by the Government attitude towards vaccine safety. I also think the Gardasil vaccine is a jab too far - the public would have to be mad to swallow that one. There have been so many adverse reactions and cervical cancer is considered to be a "rare" illness. They really have shot themselves in the feet (or should it be arm) with that one, in my opinion. My niece had it, immediately collapsed and banged her head ending up in casualty. The GP was clueless about the known risk of this happening and there have been many other such cases - does this instil you with confidence??

Interesting that Tony and Cherie Blair elected against the MMR for their child. The "guru" that Cherie consulted (much beloved by celebs etc) is actually opposed to all vaccinations, saying that there should be delayed umbilical cord clamping and then one year of breast feeding, in which case the child will have very good natural immunity and vax are not worth the risk.

Believe me, plenty of doctors are quite sceptical about the proliferation of vaccines and the rise of chronic childhood illness like asthma, diabetes, autism, ADHD etc. They do not necessarily follow the official DoH guidelines when it comes to their own children.

I can only suggest people do their homework and follow their instincts. My experiences of the medical profession in this country have not left with with a great sense of reassurance as to the integrity of its members, or the efficacy of their "care".

i didn't know the Blairs got singles. I thought they confirmed Leo had had the MMR.

yes where did you hear that mumofteens?

oh shit, now i'm getting worried. i started out on this thread vehemently pro-vaccines, but now i'm not so sure.

can anyone point me to some actual research papers that show the side effects of vaccines? there has to be some!

pagwatch you can self notify a yellow card now. You can do it online. I'm not sure it officially includes vaccinations (says 'medicines' but I always tell people to do it anyway.

here patient yellow card system -says you can report your childs reaction- do it now- hmmm perhaps we should spread the word.... who cares if it was years ago- you're still living with the effects

Warthog. I'd really recommend the Richard Halvorsen book. He's a GP, he's balanced, he references everything so you can follow back to the original references and its an easy read. And its cheap!

I was vehemently pro-vaccines. I marched ds1 to the surgery for meningitis C when it first came out. I know quite a few completely unvaccinated children. The vast majority have fully vaccinated elder siblings- and that's why they're unvaccinated. If you don't vaccinate you get painted as a nutter. In fact the majority of people I know who don't vaccinate- were once - pro-vaccinations- they bought into the system, they did and they believed in it. ooh there's an old but great newspaper piece by Nick Hornby on just this- will post in a minute

Read Richard Halvorsen's book warthog [look him up on amazon] about vaccines, he is a gp in London and knows his stuff. He is not anti-vaccine, but knows the research and potential problems with some vaccines. He also gives single measles, mumps and rubella shots. but remember before you worry yourself silly that many children of course have vaccines and are fine.

old, but great piece about autism and MMR by Nick Hornby

1dilemma - yes. there has been virtually no autism/MMR discussion here but the party line is very much 'MMR and MMR only'. They actually give the 'booster' in the second year of life, sometimes as early as 4 weeks after the first one! No idea what that's all about.

good article yurt if rather depressing. What do you think about the fact that MMR seems not to be an issue in Europe? Or is it an issue for a similar minority of families in Europe and we just haven't heard about it?

The internet/biomed groups I'm on have people from all countries. You hear that it's not an issue in the States etc- it is if you go on a American autism/biomed group. Here it's high profile because of the media frenzy (most media coverage is anti-Wakefield) and a certain journalist's weird obsession vendetta interest in Wakefield.

interesting. just something i keep hearing from MNetters in other countries, that it is not an issue over there. the Wakefield demonisation process has obviously made it a much more publicised topic here.

2002 Nick Hornby wrote that piece- and not one single thing has changed. Blimey I read that before ds1 was diagnosed. And every single thing he said still stands....

It's not an issue if you're not involved in autism. If you are, then it very much is.....

quite.

bero where I live gives it's booster much earlier than the borough our GP is in!
I was very surprised to hear about such variation in such a small area.

I would however be somewhat about taking healthcare advice from the Blairs guru!

Although her dp does a nice line in BTL!

thanks - i'll get that book.

my brother has regressive autism and had a large part of his intestine removed as a child. i've never asked my mum if she felt it was linked to vaccines, although she had the rest of us vaccinated, so i don't think she did.

Oh that's interesting (and sad- how is your brother now?) The general theory is that the gut can become leaky in various ways- sometimes more seriously leaky than others - and that different triggers can cause this leakiness. MMR being one such trigger. Once its leaky then you're more at risk from things like viruses, environmental toxins, even normal stuff like gluten as you'll get different things going through in higher quantities than usual (take gluten for example- once the gut is leaky partly broken down molecules of gluten can get through the larger gaps- some of these have opiate type effects- normally these opiate type molecules are safely stored in the gut- once its leaky..... (and the blood brain barrier is leaky too) hey you have a drug addict gettiing high on bread.

It's always hard. now ds3 has turned 3 and is developing normally we've started him on gluten - literally in the last few weeks, properly this week. In the last 24 hours he has had 2 lots of headbanging incidents - which I can't remember him doing since he was 16 months old and we tightenend up on gluten and cut down his cows milk intake. We know he has a leaky gut - and if he carries on headbanging he'll have to go gluten free again. DS1 always headbangs on gluten too. (opiate type effect=can't feel the pain!) We don't really know why ds3 has a leaky gut. The general consensus is that it's usually triggered by something. In our case it may well be genetic (hence genetic predisposition to autism and various autoimmune conditions such as diabetes).

we started ds on gluten too yurt when he turned 3. He now is addicted to french bread! He has had a surge of angry behaviour recently, and I don't know if it is linked to the bread or just a surge of testorerone that apparently they get around 3. Taking bread away from him now would be hard but when he is such a fussy limited eater, but we may have to consider it. We started giving him dairy when he was around 2 and a half, because getting enough calcium into him was so hard, which he seemed to tolerate [he doesn't like milk products much] Halvorsen was very helpful when I spoke to him [but i didn't ask him about diet]

MMR really isn't much of an issue in France, for example. When I said we would not give her MMR (called "ROR" here), DD's French paediatrician asked "Why?". She had not heard of links to autism, if you can believe it.

Still, single measles vaccine exists in France and costs something like 10 euros (7.5 pounds) and DD had that. There are no single vaccines for rubella and mumps, but they are not mandatory for school admissions etc so DD didn't have those.

CoteDAzur is measles mandatory then? Strange that is and rubella isn't. Do you have to pay for other jabs in France?

I'm fairly sure you need to have had the measles vaccine in order to enroll in a school. I do know for sure that rubella and mumps vaccines are not compulsory.

The system here in MC/France is that you pay for paediatrician visits (same paed every time, monthly visits first six months, then yearly, unless any illness/accident) and jabs/medicine and then you send the receipts to social security and get 80% back.

Measles was very cheap, about 10 euros or so, irrc. Paed gets 35 euros per visit, so 45 euros (33 pounds in total). I remember because someone told me in UK it was about 200 pounds .

There are no single jabs for mumps and rubella in France so we are not vaccinating DD for those. Her paed said that if she still hasn't had rubella by the time puberty hits, she can be vaccinated against it then.

Wow monthly then annual visits, impressive. I wonder if it translates into any improvement....
Although not sure how you would measure that.