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MMR - is there any well respected, well researched evidence against it?

175 replies

bohemianbint · 03/01/2008 19:00

I'm due to get DS (16 months) jabbed around about now, and I'm just trying to get my head around the whole thing.

I'm erring on the side of just doing it - I'm aware that the fella who started the autism rumours was a bit of a religious nutter by all accounts and has been discredited.

There seems to be a lot of studies from reputable sources that it is a Good Thing. Are there any non-speculative, non-hysterical articles based in fact which support not giving it?

Even though the more I read, the more I think it's fine (and I don't let anyone jab me or mine un-necessarily, there was no syntocin or vit K jabs when I had DS!) I'm still a bit worried and want to be as informed as possible before making a decision.

Your help would be appreciated! (I can't make any decision without Mumsnet. )

OP posts:
NorthernLurker · 04/01/2008 15:44

I'm hoping Cote was joking about 'the consequences of their irresponsibility bit' - because of course the primary person who suffers in the event of a ruebella infection is the hapless child. If not - well the locked in the house thing is plainly ridiculous and of course it is perfectly possible for the mother in this hypothetical case to have caught ruebella before even knowing they were pregnant.

As for castigating parents - well someone who has made a deliberate decision not to vaccinate may surely expect to justify that decision - and to a greater degree than someone who unwittingly transmits an illness that they thought because of childhood vaccination or illness they were immune to?

ruty · 04/01/2008 15:48

well i would argue that the ignorance of an adult who 'unwittingly' transmits a disease makes them more culpable than a parent who has agonized over the right decision to protect the health of their child. and that parent is much more likely to look out for any disease in their child, and keep them away from other people if they did get it.

thebecster · 04/01/2008 15:52

I'm biased due to my experiences (earlier in thread) but my experience has led me to believe that vaccination is more likely to lead to adult cases of Measles. Incidentally my DS and I's cases of measles came from contact with a child recently arrived from Africa, not from someone in the UK who had chosen not to vaccinate. Perhaps we should close the borders...?

CoteDAzur · 04/01/2008 15:56

I do want my child to have mumps and rubella. My research on the subject suggests that not only their immunity will thereby be for much longer, but also their immune system will be stronger.

As such, she is not vaccinated against these diseases. She will at some point have them, and I will keep her at home until she is free of the said diseases. If she doesn't have rubella by the time she is in her teens, she will have the jab then. You will NOT see not come back here crying "Boo hoo DD caught rubella while pregnant. Damn those unvaccinated kids and their mums!".

I am not under obligation to vaccinate my child against myriad diseases that roam the earth so that perfectly able adults can waive the responsibility for their own immunity.

The logic of this statement is, I suspect, the reason why their vaccination is not compulsory.

NorthernLurker · 04/01/2008 15:56

I don't think the degree to which you have agonised over a decision allows you to abdicate social responsibility - and for me vaccination is about protecting others as well as my child.

yurt1 · 04/01/2008 15:57

bectser- the interesting thing about the reports from the GMC is how obvious it seems it was that the GPs and other doctors did not want to take part....

I need to read it again (but its long) but it seems that parents were refused permission to give evidence (although its supposedly their children who are the injured parties).

ruty · 04/01/2008 16:00

I don't think the degree to which an adult claims ignorance about their own immunity abdicates them from social responsibility either. That was my point.

thebecster · 04/01/2008 16:04

Yes, I can't imagine any doctor going willingly. A GMC trial is every doctor's worst nightmare, being called for the prosecution against a fellow-medic must be awful. Politics and medicine shouldn't have anything to do with each other...

yurt1 · 04/01/2008 16:05

Apparently most of the GPs have said they were happy to refer on and happy to be able to offer something to desperate parents.

evenhope · 04/01/2008 17:34

Well my DS2 had rubella and mumps, having been vaccinated with the MMR. His sister, who didn't get MMR or the measles jab (GP refused both because of egg allergy) didn't get anything.

Any woman of childbearing age has a responsibility to get her rubella immunity checked before she gets pregnant. It does wear off.

AussieSim · 04/01/2008 17:48

I had DS1 in Germany and then moved back to Oz - in neither place there is/was no sizable debate about the safety of MMR. I couldn't get single jabs in Germany or Oz as they just looked at me like I was a crazy person and explained that they simply weren't available.

If I hadn't been a MNer I would never have heard of the concerns.

Having said that I am all for holding off till they are a bit older - the schedule here has them down for 12mths but I prefer to wait for a few months later. AND make sure they are very fit and healthy when you take them.

What I have found is that it is a right pain in the neck for childcare, schooling and government rebates etc to have a kid that hasn't had the full schedule of vaccinations (DS1 didn't get HepB Vac as they didn't give it to babies in Germany and by the time I got to Oz I was advised to wait with it till he is 10 or so). I had to fill out a concientous objection form - and I am not actually a COer.

The funny thing is that I have enrolled DS1 in Rudolf Steiner preschool for the last two years and this year he starts school at Rudolf Steiner and the hippies there are dead against all vaccinations .

donnie · 04/01/2008 17:58

well I am no scientist but I can tell everyone that when at 6 months old we took Dd1 to Great ormond St for specialist treatment for her eczema - which at the time was appalling - the consultant paed advised us to get single jabs ,not because of any autism link but because of immune stystem overload. It is plain sensible.

I cannot bear the way Andrew wakefield has been smeared by the press and the NHS. One thing I would say to people pondering single vaccinations/MMR is : don't ever ask anyone working for the NHS as you will simply get the party line which is politically motivated.

Another vote for the Brakespear Hospital btw.

nooka · 04/01/2008 19:08

And going to a private practitioner will give you an unbiased opinion? Don't they have a profit motive? GMC cases are indeed rare and unpleasant. They are also incredibly difficult to bring and require a lot of evidence before the GMC will even consider them. They don't require a patient complaint, but arise for all sorts of reasons where there is a concern about a doctor's competance or behaviour.

warthog · 04/01/2008 19:38

the op's question doesn't seem to have been answered:

is there any well-respected, well-researched evidence against the mmr. (i'd add unbiased to that.)

not that i have seen.

WinkyWinkola · 04/01/2008 20:02

I think some scientists question whether there has been good research into all vaccinations.

It's not just autism that is of concern. For example, lots of vaccines contain 1000 times more aluminium that is recommended in a daily dose.

Try reading for more info although the typos irritate me!

There are loads of books out there on vaccines - some hysterical, some measured.

ruty · 04/01/2008 20:02

even the govt's own cochrane report concluded there was not enough evidence, either for or against, to confirm MMR safe. Lack of research is not a great way of proving something is safe.

yurt1 · 04/01/2008 20:40

Is there any well researched evidence that shows the MMR doesn't cause autism in a small susceptible group of children? No.

yurt1 · 04/01/2008 21:11

thebecster - this is a bit from the cry shame report about 2 of the GP's who were called to give evidence. I must say it reflects how I have found good GP's. Your dad might enjpy Richard Halvorsen's book the truth about vaccination as well (he's an NHS GP):

"The Last Two GPs

During the week, two more GPs of the anonymous children written up in the Lancet paper, were called. Although admittedly, calling the GP?s was better for the prosecution than calling the parents, on the whole the prosecution gained next to nothing from bringing them to court.

Both GPs gave evidence and were cross examined on the matter of their having let the patients out of their grasp and, as it were, allowing them to be self-referred by their mothers to the Royal Free. Both GPs were of a similar mind; that the cases were complex and their symptoms presented a condition with which they were by no means familiar. This inadvertent lack of knowledge had led to a series of referrals in both cases, which might be considered in hindsight to have been ?casting around? for a solution.

Both GPs refused to fall in line behind the prosecution supposition that in referring the children to the Royal Free the doctors had given up their patients to the devil. Both declared with ringing common sense that they had done what was best for their patients and their parents. What is more, both felt that their actions had been thoroughly vindicated when they received the discharge summary from the Royal Free and when later it became apparent that the two patients had been offered a believable diagnosis and treatment which had in differing degrees helped their condition.

The second of the GPs was an ebullient man who despite being called for the prosecution, determinedly spoke for the defence. His evidence was packed with common sense and a humble acceptance that there were people in the profession who might know more than he did.

At one point during his cross examination this doctor put succinctly into words the thoughts that had been on the minds of most of the other doctors. Explaining that he had reached a stage where he was not concerned about the child attending the Royal Free or being subjected to investigations he said; 'I was pleased that the child was being dealt with and was glad that the mother was behind the referrals. Anything was worth a try'.

By the time that this GP appeared at the end of the week, it was apparent that the prosecution had slightly changed direction. Whereas the previous group of GPs had all been tarred with the brush of sending child patients on an illegitimate caravan to be experimented upon by Dr Wakefield, the two later doctors were charged with having helped Wakefield with his obviously nonsensical research. Research which claimed that MMR caused autism.

In fact it didn?t matter, because all the GPs appeared worthy, conscientious and sensible in the face of the rather haphazard prosecution. Apart from one unfortunate remark by a doctor who suggested a patient?s mother was searching too hard for a cause and a viable treatment, when she should perhaps learn to live with her son?s condition, most of the GPs gave credence to the parent?s feelings.

The fact that these worthy doctors had been brought to London in order to give evidence against three other doctors and, in a sense, against their patients and their parents made one wonder at the GMC's political turpitude.

In an odd way, the presentation of evidence by all the GPs gave one new faith in the average doctor. All seemed unaffected by the ideological blandishments of the Department of Health and unwilling to carelessly throw in their lot with their own regulatory body. They were independent and happy to admit that they had acted in the interests of the patient and the patient?s family. All of them expressed their empathy for the terrible circumstances which had befallen the parents and in comparison with the apparently unfeeling approaches of Miss Smith and Owain Thomas, they came across as intellectually engaging and sympathetic to both the parents and the children.

nooka · 04/01/2008 21:42

The Cochrane library review (this is an international, independant not-for-profit organization and nothing to do with the UK government. these reviews are held to be "gold standard" in the public health world) concluded that "There was no credible evidence behind claims of harm from the MMR vaccination." the researchers stated that ?In particular we conclude that all the major unintended events, such as triggering
Crohn?s disease or autism, were suspected on the basis of unreliable evidence,?

The systematic review?s key findings are that:

  1. There is no credible link between the MMR vaccine and any long-term disability,
including Crohn?s disease and autism.
  1. MMR is an important vaccine that has prevented diseases that still carry a heavy
burden of death and complications where the vaccine is not used consistently.
  1. The lack of confidence in MMR has caused great damage to public health.
  2. People arguing for or against the use of any therapy need to make sure that they
base their conclusions on carefully collected evidence, not just on biased opinion, speculation or suspicion.

You can the report here: mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD004407/frame.html

The researchers also stated that the design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR studies was largely inadequate and that subsequent research should include standardised definitions of adverse events.

You could well say that the right research has not yet been undertaken, and really this is the sad thing about the Wakefield controversy. It has caused a great deal of anxiety and resulted in lots of money being spent to try and prove something not very provable rather than researching into causes or treatment for autism. The Lancet should never have published Wakefield's paper in the first place, and Wakefield should not have given it such a fanfare. There is little proof that MMR is related to autism or Bowel disease and none that single vaccines act differently. No one has replicated his findings reliably, and there are definate anomalies in his behaviour around the research, which is what the GMC case is around. Now doctors can turn on their own, like any profession, but the GMC is still (at present) independant and run by doctors, I suspect that if the press ran things there would be queues of doctors up for review.

candypandy · 04/01/2008 21:52

I have never heard anyone before question the presumption that pregnant women should not have to bear the burden of responsibility for the safety of their unborn child but may rely primarily upon the readiness of other parents to risk their own children to ensure that safety. I echo that challenge; it seems right and proper to me that a rubella vaccination is given in early adolescence to girls and that women over 18 should check their own immunity. Rubella is not harmful to children, and it is much better for girls to have it as a child and acquire life long immunity.

Shitemum · 04/01/2008 22:09

By NorthernLurker on Fri 04-Jan-08 14:47:26
CoteDAzur -"the majority of 'vulnerable' people don't know they are at risk. And unborn babies can't be vaccinated - neither as far as I am aware can pregnant women. "

I was given a Tetanus booster when preg. It must have been just after this that I started to read as much as I could about vaccinations as I decided not to have my DD vaccinated.
Now I can't believe I allowed myself to be vaccinated while preg.

ScottishMummy · 04/01/2008 22:09

some links for you
Effects of a web based decision aid on parental attitudes to MMR vaccination: a before and after study"

NHS Immunisation information"

chronological time line of relevent studies"

NHS info

FAQ

MMR myths and truths

fwiw, the original research by Wakefield et al has been wholly discredited

MilkMonitor · 04/01/2008 22:30

Mumps has very very rarely caused complications or death.

Measles is a bit more problematic but not really these days with improved hygiene and nutrition.

Rubella is a risk only for PG women. Get all girls vaccinated at 13.

Don't believe the scary hype about these 'killer' diseases.

yurt1 · 04/01/2008 22:31

"There is little proof that MMR is related to autism or Bowel disease" can you point me to any research in this direction please

"fwiw, the original research by Wakefield et al has been wholly discredited" can you list me some papers please. please don't list ones which prove that MMR is safe for the majority of children we all know that. I need to see papers that prove that MMR is safe- even for the 8% of children with autism who are believed to have regressed following MMR.

The original Lancet paper was meant to have been accompanied by a second paper (this has come out during the GMC hearings). For reasons as to whart happened to it you'll need to plough through the hearing diaries- but this piece below-

From the cry shame website which has reported daily on the GMC hearings:

'A Second Lancet Paper

The unlikely named Professor Candy is a consultant paediatric gastroenterologist and a highly qualified peer reviewer of 20 years standing for the Lancet. Whilst Richard Horton had already alluded to it in passing, it was only when the professor gave his evidence that a ?partner paper? came into focus. This paper, explaining the science behind claims of a link between Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD), persistent measles virus and regressive autism/CDD, had been handed to the Lancet at the same time as the now infamous 12 child ?case-series? paper.

For the uninitiated, a frightening picture now emerged of the prosecution presenting for the first time robust evidence that Dr Wakefield?s science left a lot to be desired. Professor Candy, however, turned out to be a real sweetie and yet again a great patron of the defence.

Apparently, Dr Wakefield and other signatories had expected both papers to be published in the same issue of the Lancet. In the event, the scientific model underpinning the ?case series? paper was turned down by two peer reviewers but supported by Professor Candy; not just supported, we heard, but supported in glowing terms.

Candy?s evidence was an eye opener for those who had often wondered about how peer reviewers work. He told an interesting story of a field which had become gradually more open over the last twenty years.

Professor Candy?s first comment about the ?partner? paper was that it was well written. This was stated as a throw-away line, and he followed with a barely surprised comment that this was only to be expected. ?Professor Walker-Smith? Candy said, ?has written text books which are very lucid?. This was not the first, not would it be the last praise for Professor Walker-Smith?s reputation and his considerable body of work, which included a number of text books.

On Professor Walker-Smith, when I see him at the hearing, my thoughts are thrown back to the pompous, angry and defensive Professor Zuckerman, who insisted on saying that giving evidence against his colleagues was painful. Although I have no reason to assume Professor Walker-Smith, now retired for 5 years, is not holding up as stoically as the other defendants, his general demeanour exudes a world weariness which is sad to observe.

Although the emphasis throughout this whole affair has been on the injustice done to Dr Wakefield, we should always be mindful of what Brian Deer?s complaints to the GMC are doing to Professor Walker Smith. To end an entirely meritorious career in medicine with this smear of a trial is a calamity almost unbearable for a person of such obvious integrity.

The position of Professor Walker-Smith is testimony to the lengths that politicians and the medical establishment will go to keep faith with the pharmaceutical industry; to break an exceptional physician on the rack of cynicism and profitability. In all such matters I am guided almost entirely by the parents with whom I have spoken. To witness the warmth and respect that they show to Professor Walker-Smith gladdens the heart. I hope that he is aware of the affection in which he is held and that in turn this provides strength and solace.

Professor Candy?s remarks about Professor Walker-Smith were immediately followed by very flattering statements about Professor Simon Murch and Dr Thompson, whom Professor Candy informed the Panel were the two best endoscopists in the country.

Professor Candy, a learned looking man with white hair and glasses had begun giving his evidence at 12.15 and by 12.40 any fears that the prosecution had called a good witness for their case had evaporated. In fact Professor Candy got quite carried away, falling into the vernacular, with his enthusiasm for the second unpublished paper.

The second paper demonstrated measles virus protein in the gut of some of the children whose cases were reviewed in the published paper. ?It was like a double-whammy?, he said ?clinical observation backed up by good science.?

Professor Candy said that he was upset and surprised when the Lancet published the first paper without the second, and even more surprised when the publication of the first paper was accompanied by an editorial which suggested that there was no evidence presented for the strength of the measles virus in the gut of the children cited. This information was in the second paper, he said, and it was his opinion that both papers should have been published together; that the first paper was supported by the second. In Candy?s opinion the two papers were ?indivisible?.

When Mr Koonan began his cross examination of Professor Candy he had little difficulty in consolidating the points which had already been brought out in his evidence-in-chief. Both papers, he said, ?were well written and needed no significant criticism from him.? He said that ?the findings of measles antigen in the bowel of the treated children, some years after exposure, seemed to me to be revolutionary?.

The whole peculiar incident of this paediatrician?s evidence reminded me of the rule, doggedly adhered to by quackbusters and sceptics across the globe. While such people moan and keen over the subject of junk science, when faced with the genuine article they simply refuse to discuss it. While claiming that only science matters, in the majority these people show themselves to be ignorant of human motivation, honest purpose and most of all science in the public interest.

In fact both Mr Koonan and Mr Miller were able to make major consolidation over the work of the team who authored both Lancet papers. Almost at the end of his cross examination at 2.25, Professor Candy made the statement which all three defendants will be able to look back upon with pride.

?The findings of the papers? he said, in his opinion ?were watertight?.

yurt1 · 04/01/2008 22:37

This is what Richard Horton (editor of the Lancet) said at the GMC hearing btw. Again from the Hearing Diaries on the Cry Shame website.

"When Horton moved to talking about the paper published in the Lancet, it became clear that he had the highest regard for the method which the ?case series? used and the way in which it was presented. If the prosecution was expecting him to say that the paper was full of poor science, they must have been surprised when he said the absolute opposite.

Horton said that the Lancet paper was an excellent example of a ?case series?. That this was a standard and entirely reputable way of reporting on a possible new syndrome. He likened it to how the first cases of HIV/AIDS were reported in the early 80s and how the new variant CJD issue broke more recently. He said unequivocally that the science reported in the 1998 Lancet paper ?still stands? and that he 'wished, wished, wished' that the clock could be turned back and the paper be considered in the light it was first presented, without everything that followed.

Defence council spent a considerable time cross examining Horton about the declaration of ?conflict of interest? issue. Over the years this has become one of the most important issues associated with the Lancet paper. At the end of a long session, the worst that Horton could adduce was that Dr Wakefield was genuinely surprised that there was the need for him to reveal funding from the Legal Aid Board, which anyway hadn?t been used in this case-series, or at all at that point.

Horton was happy to say that Dr Wakefield had been honest throughout his dealings with the Lancet and that he had not declared any conflict of interest because he genuinely believed (and believes still) that there was no conflict to be declared. While Horton personally disagreed with Dr Wakefield?s interpretation of this, as did Professor Simon Murch and Professor Walker-Smith, he acknowledged clearly that it could be seen as a matter of opinion and not a reflection on Dr Wakefield?s honesty."