MMR - is there any well respected, well researched evidence against it?

[bohemianbint]

I'm due to get DS (16 months) jabbed around about now, and I'm just trying to get my head around the whole thing.

I'm erring on the side of just doing it - I'm aware that the fella who started the autism rumours was a bit of a religious nutter by all accounts and has been discredited.

There seems to be a lot of studies from reputable sources that it is a Good Thing. Are there any non-speculative, non-hysterical articles based in fact which support not giving it?

Even though the more I read, the more I think it's fine (and I don't let anyone jab me or mine un-necessarily, there was no syntocin or vit K jabs when I had DS!) I'm still a bit worried and want to be as informed as possible before making a decision.

Your help would be appreciated! (I can't make any decision without Mumsnet. )

There are- but generally after introduction (and usually used as an argument to give another booster )

My GP had never seen an adult with measles but I suspect he'll see a few more as the MMR generation grows up and measles becomes more common with international travel and unvaccinated children. My Dad is a retired GP from the era when measles was more common & he'd seen adults with measles but said 'of course, they all died'. Which was cheering! But the ones he saw were people who'd come over in the Windrush and had no immunity at all to measles. Adults didn't get measles in those days because they were exposed as a child so had genuine lifelong immunity. Encephalitis was awful to recover from, although I should be more grateful that I did recover at all. I don't remember much about the illness, or anything from the month or so before it - I've lost a lot of memories. Luckily for me, my sister is a neuropsychiatrist and she personally supervised my rehab. She was very tough on me - it was like bootcamp! But I probably have a great deal to thank her for. Like the use of my left arm and leg, for example! And the fact that I can find my own way home without needing to write my own address on my hand 'just in case' (early days of encephalitis recovery... god it was scarey...)

I know my sister had measles really badly when she was about 5, they were in her eyes and everywhere. And she'd had the MMR.

Really good reading all of these posts, thank you everyone. Still have no clue what to do about it though!

I am tempted to look into single measles vaccine and just try to get DS to actually catch the other 2 as a child.

Are there any problems with the single measles vaccine? Would this be a better solution than the MMR?

God becster.. it sounds awful.

Oh it was! Thanks for kind comments yurt & dinosaur. And thank you yurt for being so helpful on these threads. I found your info so useful when I was getting single vacs for DS after Measles. You're so honest, and considering what you've been through I think you're remarkably UNjudgemental about MMR! It's also good to see someone protecting Andrew Wakefield's reputation, as far as anyone can... My Dad referred an autistic child with bowel problems to him (Dad reckoned they were MMR related - he knew the family before the vaccine and said the regression was marked and followed fits straight after MMR). The family got so much help from AW, such a tragedy that he can't help families here any more. Has there EVER been another case of a doctor being tried by the GMC without a single patient complaint? I find it scarey how a man's reputation can be so destroyed. The things that people say about him, even in these threads, believing that they know the truth because they've read the newspapers.

bohemianbint - problem is if you just immunise against measles then there is a theoretical risk that your child could catch and pass on mumps and ruebella. Your child would most likely weather these illnesses fine - but Mumps can be serious and cause male sterility and Ruebella is a disaster for non-immune pregnant mothers. You can't get round that situation - if you don't immunise you are putting other children at risk as well as your own. You have to decide what you can live with. It is very tough either way I think.

Just to say I was hospitalised with Mumps last year. I caught it off an unimmunised child. Because it is a rare disease these days, and because I had a rare complication, it took ages to diagnose and I was seriously ill for some time.

DH (a virologist) says autism rates were increasing is the years before MMR was introduced. That is not, of course, to say that there are a small percentage of children who do react to vaccines. If you have autoimmune disease in your family, go for the single jabs. If not, consider those of us whose health is put at risk by your actions.

slug - re "those of us whose health is put at risk by your actions"

If you are "at risk", go get yourself vaccinated. What a bizarre idea that my baby should be vaccinated so she doesn't pass illnesses to "those of us" who can't be bothered to get jabs for themselves

CoteDAzur - the majority of 'vulnerable' people don't know they are at risk. And unborn babies can't be vaccinated - neither as far as I am aware can pregnant women.

thebecster do you know whether it was Brian Deer who made the complaint? Does that mean any doctor can be dragged before the GMC with no patient complaints because I decide I don't like the look of him or her? Scary if true. Have you read the cry shame website. The whole thing is utterly bizarre- they're trying to put together a case where they have no victims. The case hinges on his having acted alone - but as the case progresses because he did everything by the book the people who are giving evidence against him are in it up to their necks as much as he is (or they would be if there was a case to answer).

the hearing diaries are a very long read - but worth it- quite a bit there about the GPs who referred patients as well - your Dad might be interested.

Your dad's patient's regression sounds similar to the child I know whose paed said it was prob MMR related

you could have also caught mumps [or measles] off a vaccinated child slug. I was actually vaccinated for measles as a baby and still caught measles [and badly, was hospitalized] as a 12 year old. Although i agree with the general idea that those with auto immune disease should go for singles and that MMR as far as we know is safe for the majority, though of course it is hard to know, with the present lack of research, who is at risk from the MMR. However small the sub group at risk is, more research should be done.

As far as rubella goes, immunity defintely wears off after the vaccine. So babies getting the rubella vaccine may not be immune from adolescence onwards. A much more sensible and effective way of protecting the at risk group would be to vaccinate all adolescent girls at say 12.

thank god yurt is around with the science.

A pregnant woman about to be a mother is hopefully a responsible adult who should know better than loading the responsibility of her lack of immunity on little babies.

DD is vaccinated only against measles. Her paediatrician said that if she does not have rubella by the time she is in her teens, she could have the single jab for it then.

In other words, take responsibility for your own immunity or lack thereof.

why don't the majority of vulnerable people know they are at risk NorthernLurker? Parents who choose to delay/be selective about vaccines are hauled over the coals for lack of social responsibility - shouldn't adults also be aware of whether they are immune or not? Because they could just as easily pass a disease onto someone vulnerable as a child...

ds1 caught rubella from a vaccinated child- it's such a mild disease & the mum thought it couldn't possibly be rubella as her ds had had MMR. She continued to take him out. I knew we'd been exposed- ds1 stayed in- away from pregnant people from the time he was potentially infectious (as he turned out to be).

ds1's MMR (one dose) didn't work for mumps. It did for measles and rubella though. (We know this from a blood test). Paed has suggested we go to the UK and get a single mumps booster done but I reckon I'll leave it until he's 10 or so. I should think we'll do measles boosters for dses in their teens. I'm actually wondering whether to have my own immunity checked, as I have had mumps and probably asymptomatic rubella but know that I would have had the measles vaccine rather than the disease.

Thanks for link yurt, my Dad will be very interested in the GPs who have given evidence, I'll print it for him (he's such a technophobe...)

The GMC case is very weird and indeed scarey for all doctors who don't toe the party line. And scary for patients who would like to see intelligent doctors with enquiring minds and a scientific approach, who care about their patients more than politics. They'll be in short supply if this is what is happens when a doctor suggests that something should be researched.

Well perhaps as adults we should all check our immunity to serious illness but that isn't done at present so can't really be factored into my decision making
CoteDAzur - I don't think babies can be held responsible for anything but parents can. I have vaccinated my children to protect them but also to protect my community. That is my decision - made with planning and forethought. I'm quite sure that all those who have decided not to vaccinate make the decision with the same level of consideration. Everybody must of course make decisions that are right for them - but I reserve the right to challenge and question such decisions which I believe put others health at risk. Many women become pregnant unexpectedly - unless immunity is routinely checked in the population they would not know themselves and their babies to be at risk prior to pregnancy. Rightly or wrongly they rely on vaccination in the majority of the population to potect them. I am happy for myself and my children to be relied on in that way.

Does anyone know anything about the booster MMR?

My dd has had 1 MMR jab and now at 2.3 is well overdue for her second. However, the advice on when to have it seems to depends on what borough you live in and I'm disinclined to have it done unnecessarily early just because of our postcode.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Those women who become pregnant unexpectantly, don't know if they have had rubella or been vaccinated against it, should have the IgG rubella test to see if they are immune.

If not, they should then suffer the consequences of their irresponsibility (of not having had a jab before getting pregnant) and stay locked in their homes until they give birth, if they really wish to avoid any chance encounter with the virus.

IOrek you can have your child's immunity done by blood test to see if she needs the booster or not.
NorthernLurker it still seems rather illogical to me to castigate parents for selectively vaccinating [if of course they have given it proper research and thought] when there are so many adults walking around who are not immune to so many of the vaccine preventable diseases and could catch them and spread them at any time.

Thanks Dinosaur - I understand that immunity may not be lifelong - however I think that the immunity vaccination confers is still worth having - specifically because childhood is the prime point at which illnesses such as measles are caught and spread. If we reduce the number of outbreaks in children we will reduce adult cases - and that is what vaccination has done. I think that is worth having.

Don't agree about 'suffering the consequences of their irresponsiblity' Cote. A better method would be to vaccinate all adolescent girls at 11 or 12. For the NHS not to do this is very irresponsible IMO.

NorthernLurker the only reason these diseases have so far been primarily caught and spread between children is because these diseases are traditionally childhood diseases [ie before vaccination] We will now see more and more adults getting these diseases, and spreading them, as vaccination immunity wears off.

a case in point is the recent outbreak of mumps at a university near me, the students had to have another vaccine as their immunity had worn off.