MMR

[Mog]

I know this has been covered before but it was before my time on mumsnet. At the risk of boring people, yes or no to the MMR jab?

YPUK - re: your earlier message today referencing my comment on social responsibility.

Mumsnet has been a great site for me as I have always found the comments and messages useful in some way whether it is support, helpful advice or discussing different opinions to help me develop my own thoughts. I have always tried to be polite, avoid insulting others and respect different points of view to my own. However, you clearly don?t share my stance on this and your comments directly implying that I (and others like me who share my thoughts on social responsibility) am "cold or thoughtless" is downright rude.
What on earth gives you the right to make such unkind character assassinations? I don?t consider myself overly sensitive and feel that you have most definitely stepped way over the mark.

If this type of slanging match becomes a regular feature of threads on Mumsnet, where people feel it totally acceptable to hurl insults rather than discuss difficult issues rationally, then I don?t want to be a part of it. Life is hard enough at times without having abuse hurled at me (and others) from the internet as well.

Yes, but there were a fraction of the deaths and paralysis on pre-Polio vaccine times. I'm old enough to remember people being in an iron lung for their entire adult lives due to polio. I think it would be negligent of me to risk my son getting such a devastating disease. Lord Snowdon was rich, well-fed etc etc and he's now in a wheelchair due to childhood polio. And he had a very mild case. Does it occur to you that scientists in general are pro-vaccinations because (just imagine!) they actually believe they work and are a good idea? Or are you really paranoid enough to think that every single one of them really believes that vaccines are evil and dangerous but wants to poison your child for fun and money? I have posted anti-MMR stuff before (and am very sceptical indeed about government reassurances on MMR) but I do find your stance very, very extreme.

Re: measles - I've already stated this I'm sure but will state again - my brother and two sisters all had measles, mump and scarlet fever within quick succession of each other and all survived to tell the tale. All are very healthy too. My mum was pleased to get them all over in one go.

Re: chicken pox - aloha, you state you're not keen on vaccination against this but I believe chicken pox kills about 12% of those that catch it.

Re: malaria - biggest killer of children. I know this and yet still chose not to vaccinate dd if we had gone to Sri Lanka. One because the vaccine is not effective and two due to concerns over the vaccine caused by American soldiers killing themselves and family members shortly after taking the tablets.

My main concern about the MMR is that I didn't have Rubella until I was 12 - why give my dd it now? Measles - there are many cases cropping up now of children showing the measles strain within their systems - why? Mumps - still holding out on this one but as the only one to be affected would be doh, he'd have to move out temporarily. Yes, I know the injections are given at spaced out intervals but doesn't the first one only just start to really kick in just as the second one is being administered?

Also - dd has had a definite weakness in her bowel and I'm not prepared to put that at risk.

Is there a vaccine for malaria? I have never heared of one. There are drugs that you can take to stop you getting malaria if bitten, but no vaccine. One of the criticisms made of drug companies is that they haven't developed a vaccine for malaria, as it wouldn't make them enough money. Have you confused a drug treatment with a vaccination?

And I don't think that chicken pox kills 12% of those that get it. But it can be a killer in immunocompromised individuals, and is far more serious in adults than in children.

To JayTree, Just back with dd after MMR. She's great just now but will watch carefully. Hope you find the following information useful and/or helpful.

A friend of mime in America is the nurse in charge of vaccination for her state. She says that it is part of their policy to advice parents to give their child a dose of Calpol (or equivalent) about an hour before they are due to be injected. This will help prevent any fever immediately. Then give dose again after 4 hours as a matter of course. I have always done this with dd and it has helped with any immediate reaction. It also dulls the main of the jag.

Good luck on Monday.

Obviously didn't mean "main of the jag", meant PAIN of the jag.

No, there isn't a vaccine against malaria. I know because I know one of the brilliant doctors who is trying to develop one. Hmb, this is nothing to do with any conspiracy or plot, it's just that it's a very, very difficult thing to do. There isn't even a cure for it, only semi-effective prophylactic treatments. So children die in their millions. It's terribly sad. I asked the deaf-blind society about rubella, because I too had it at 12. They made a very persuasive case for giving it to both sexes and in early childhood, because basically they want to eliminate it from the population. Like all vaccines, it is not 100% effective and for those women who are not immune despite being vaccinated, there is a terrible risk if they catch rubella during pregnancy. The only way to stop it being around is to vaccinate babies. They used to just vaccinate girls, but of course if boys have it they can pass it on to women who either weren't vaccinated or for whom the vaccination didn't work. Hey, I'm practically talking myself into the MMR here. I'm going the single jab route myself, who knows if it will make a difference. I do suspect a link between autism in some children and vaccination, but I do realise there is another point of view, which is valid too.

And since vaccination for babies was established, the number of deaf-blind babies being born has plummetted.

aloha,

I agree, I don't think there is a conspiracy. I just made the point that the drug companies are lambasted for not producing vaccines! And then they are pilloried for making them

Out of interst did you read the study reported in the Telegraph today. IIRC 98% of autism experts stated that they did not think there was a link between MMR and Autism. I haven't read the original report, but thought it might be of interest

Sorry Hmb, I misunderstood you.

Ypuk, would be interested to know how many children you think the world over currently due as a direct result of vaccination?

Croppy - out of interest, which comments about Polio are you astounded at? There have been loads, and I'm interested (not in a 'having a dig' way, but in a 'I'm lost and can't be bothered to read through the whole thread' way!)

angelmouse - I was not saying in my earlier post that all people suffering from Smallpox died, just implying that you stood a good chance. It was a tongue in cheek comment when I said that you would have good immunity when dead! It is my sense of humour I'm afraid.

Ultimately, it is (as I have already said) a personal choice whether to immunise your child or not. Some of the comments on this thread have got a bit strong. I realise that this is an emotive issue, and one where people will never agree, but some of the posters need to remember that everybody here has a right to post without being shouted down. Nobody here has all the facts without being emotionally involved.

It was also on the news this morning, that they are worried that the level of research into MMR links to autism are actually diminishing the amount of research going into finding cures and ways of helping people with autism.

This was the same report that I saw in the Telegraph. Cant remember the web site off hand

To JoPat - thank you for the Calpol advice - I will dose her up as suggested. It sounds very sensible precaution (and will make me feel better knowing I am easing any discomfort a little).
I am so pleased that your dd is ok after her jab - so far so good! Please let me know how the next few days pan out for you. Thank you for your postings. As I have already said, a lot of this thread has really upest and confused me and your down to earth comments, honest concerns and hints have been good to read. LOL

Going off on a tangent here - but hmb made the point that there are drugs you can take to stop you getting malaria if you are bitten. In fact, no drug is 100% proof - the most important thing is to not get bitten in the first place. Use insect repellent, cover arms and legs at dawn and dusk, sleep under mossie nets etc etc. Sorry to be boring, but know of several people who wrongly thought that, by taking drugs, they were fully protected. Anyway, hope this public information broadcast is of use to anyone planning a holiday somewhere exotic. I, sadly, can only perv over the latest Kuoni brochure.

croppy,
as you probably know, vaccination damage is pathetically underreported. even the CDC (as well as the british gov and various other western governments) admit that only between 1 and 10% of vaccine damage cases are reported. and when they are reported by parents, chances are that the doctor advises the parents to seek psychiatric help, because according to them, there is no vaccine damage. so how could there be any figures about actual vaccine deaths. but i'd say 99% of SIDS cases are caused by vaccines (see alan yurko, sally clark to name the most prominent). of course, organophosphates are another reason, but that's just as hushed up as vaccination. read up on the effects of mercury poisoning. then look at the kids around you. how many do you see with highly dilated pupils, dark shadows underneath their eyes? these are typical symptoms of mercury poisoning. then look at the kids who are either totally docile or freak out at every opportunity. both are also side effects of mercury poisoning.
but that's too much for most parents, they rather live in the pretend belief that vaccines are good, than wake up, admit they made a mistake and then take on the tough task of reserving the damage. visual problems because of measles? believe me, the MMR would have caused a whole load more damage than just that in someone who had complications from contracting measles! read the vaccine inserts (and yes, these are the ones published by the vaccine manufacturers NOT some nuthead anti-vaxxers), read the possible complications/side effects and find out what those term 'rare', 'very rare' etc mean in numbers. and if you're really interested in the other side of vaccines, read alan yurko's story www.freeyurko.bizland.com

malaria: if you go to any malaria prone country, take 10g (grams NOT milligrams) of vitamin C, in the form of sodium ascorbate (solgar do one here in UK) from about 2 weeks before you go until 2 weeks after you come back. this will boost your immune system and you're less likely to get malaria than if you take those prophylactic drugs to which most mosquitos are immune to it.
hth

vaccinations and autism:
check out the "side effects" of mercury poisoning. they're very similar to the symptoms of the autistic spectrum disorder, be it add/adhd, aspergers, or full blown autism. then check out the Merck manual what it says about neomycin, the antibiotic that is one of the ingredients in MMR. will you still wonder why MMR is considered to trigger autism?

Just joined this thread and thought I would add to it.

I, like most of you, was very concerned about MMR when ds was due for his.

My mother was very concerned that I was even considering not having it done. She was a nurse and a midwife in South Africa in the 50s and 60s and saw so many babies, children and adults become very ill and die from Measles, Mumps, Polio, Smallpox etc. She had all four of us vaccinated against polio and smallpox when we were all about 2. There was, in those days no vaccine for MMR and we did all suffer from the three illnesses. My sister had them the worst but thanks to my mum's nursing skill she came out of them unscathed.

The week before ds was due for his jab I met a elderly lady whose daughter had had measles at the age of 4. She was a perfectly normal 4 year old and is now a mentally handicapped 40 year old who needs constant round the clock care. Her life was ruined by the disease as were the lives of her parents and family.

I made the decision to go for the vaccination based on the fact that I had never met anyone who can tell me that there is absolute proof that the MMR jab causes autism BUT I had met someone who showed me the affects of Measles.

Apart from being a little off colour for a day or so ds had no adverse reaction. I will have any other children that I have vaccinated.

More recently I met a lady who had the measles when she was 10 weeks pregnant and he daughter was found to be totally deaf at the age of two.

What makes me mad now is that those people who do not vaccinate their children put other people's babies (who are too young for the jab) and children at risk. I know that probably will upset those anti vacc people out there but that's how I personally feel and as everyone is being honest here ...

Ghosty, you say: "What makes me mad now is that those people who do not vaccinate their children put other people's babies (who are too young for the jab) and children at risk." As MMR is a live vaccine, "other people's babies and children" are at just as much risk from vaccinated siblings as they are from unvaccinated children, and given that the MMR does not confer 100% protection, even admitted by the pro-MMR brigade, they are also at risk from the children whose vaccines fail. I personally would regard my child as being at risk from vaccinated children! Live vaccines can be shed for weeks after administration, both in faeces and via the respiratory system.

At the end of the day, we can debate this one until the cows come home. We can bandy epidemiological statistics until we're blue in the face. The hard fact is that there are no hard and fast answers. There is no proof one way or the other that vaccines work or don't work, but there is substantial scientific evidence to suggest they can cause serious damage. Like YPUK, I believe it goes unreported and unidentified much of the time, but I also think it can be very subtle. It may come out as asthma or eczema in later childhood or adulthood, or as another immune disorder in later life.

But this whole issue is an intensely personal one, and one that must be resolved in the consciences of the parents concerned. No-one has the right to say vaccinate or don't vaccinate. My only comment would be to urge everyone to read and research as much as they can, then make an informed decision with which they are 100% comfortable with. And I mean 100%. If there are any doubts, I would urge anyone to hold back until they are certain. While I believe that a vaccination can be antidoted, the damage it causes cannot be taken back.

If I've failed to respond to someone's comments, I apologise. I will try and go back and find them. It is not deliberate evasion, but rather a lack of time!

Jaytree - I am sincerely glad that you have such a sympathetic and understanding HV and long may she work for you!! I'm glad to hear that she is so responsible, and yes, you're correct, I am speaking from personal experience (and from the experiences of many other mums I know ) My HV wanted my daughter on formula at three weeks as she wasn't gaining weight fast enough for her liking (despite being completely healthy and not showing any signs of lack of milk!). But I won't be changing surgeries. Where I live, it's hard enough to find a decent GP without dumping the one you have because the HV is c**p! I have just spent the last five years ignoring her! But my dd is five in two weeks, so I will be shot of her!!! Good luck to you!

SofiaAmes - you said: "Angelmouse, my heart breaks for the all the children that you have condemned to illness and death in order to make sure the world doesn't "collapse from over-population."

I'm sorry - would you argue that diseases don't exist to enforce natural population control? How do you see all the superfit, vaccinated, well-nourished people surviving? India currently has over 1 billion in population and that's with children (and adults) dying like flies from disease and poverty. How do you see the planet self-regulating its population if not for natural illness/disease? (Not trying to be contentious here, btw)

For my part, my heart breaks for the 1.5 million children who die each year because they are not breastfed and succumb to diarrhoeal illnesses due to being fed formula prepared with unclean water in unsanitary conditions.

"There is no credible evidence that the world population is not self-sustainable."

Could you enlarge, please?

I am also a little concerned about the pseudo scientific jargon that you have been quoting...

What's "pseudo" about it? I wasn't quoting anyone. Merely stating what I believe/perceive to be true about the way the body works. No-one knows exactly how the immune system functions in its entirety. Would you care to tell me how you perceive the immune system deals with the bypass of our natural defence system by vaccinations?

None of this seems to fit in with accepted scientific methodology and understanding of how our bodies and nature works.

Whose accepted scientific methodology and understanding? Orthodox medicine's?

Perhaps rather than telling everyone else to go back and do some research, you should doublecheck your sources and reread the information you have gathered.

Thank you, I'm quite happy with my sources.

YPUK

So why havent you answered my questions about the effects of the smallpox vaccination on getting rid of this killer disease? Or does this fact not fit into your world view that there is no proff that vaccines are 'beneficial'