MMR

[Mog]

I know this has been covered before but it was before my time on mumsnet. At the risk of boring people, yes or no to the MMR jab?

Rhosyn, tut tut, "there would appear to be no scientific evidence suggesting that vaccines are at all effective"???? even if you want to tell us about your feelings re: MMR, try and remember the huge success with many vaccines eg the recent introduction of meningitis vaccine - deaths/damaged baby numbers slashed. there are hundreds, probaby thousands of published studies on the efficacy of various vaccines.

No. I went privately for single jabs (measles only so far as my docs believed in having a gap of a few months). My docs was totally transparent on who manufactures the vaccines, what strain they are etc (see www.holbornmedicalservices.com).

Yes you can still catch the illness from the vaccine. They are quite clear on that, but it tends to be a milder form and they are not having to battle three viruses at once.

Bundle- my comment was only to rebuke Dejag's : the fact that this is the only country in the world where there has been any "alleged" problems with the jab

.... that is not true and was only trying to illustrate that fact.... I am not expressing my views on the MMR or immunization in general. I've done it in the past- won't do it again.

fair enough pupuce!

A letter from the head of the immunisation programme in the US to the UK's chief medical officer which touches on the US situation is here \linkwww.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/autism/letter-02-15-02.pdf{}

After much deliberation I have just had my dd vaccinated, and (touch wood) she appears to have not had a reaction as yet, just a bit of a runny/sore bottom.

Ds was vaccinated without any question, and was fine - I was more cautious with dd as there has been so much debate on the subject recently and it did put me off - however, commonsense prevailed.

At the end of the day, after so much debate and research on the mmr it is still recognised as the best route to go down by the "experts". I believe that if there is a problem with it, it would have been withdrawn many years ago.

It would be interesting to know what the implications of no mmr would be - children brain damaged through measles, or worse - and the other terrible effects that the illnesses can cause. I wonder how many lives it has saved over the years.

We have been blessed with effective vaccination programmes, which have virtually irradicated many illnesses - surely prevention is better than cure now we have the technology?

Not being an expert this is just imo - I do wonder if that a very miniscule minority of children possibly may have a genetic disposition to react against the vaccine, but what would their reaction would be to the full blown virus, if a tiny dose of the vaccination causes the reaction that it does?

Rhosyn - there is a lot of difference between not "at all effective" and "100% effective". And I'm sure there is plenty of evidence where they are effective to high degree. How did they manage to eliminate smallpox? If vaccines aren not effective why do the incidences of the diseases vaccinated against drop?

Bozza and Rhosyn : As there are no prospective randomised study on any vaccination... there is NO way of really knowing the effectiveness or non effectiveness of vaccine.
What we have to realise is that babies/young children are offered several vaccines, we do not know how they interact with each other and we have no idea of the ling term effect of all these combinations (each vaccine has quite a few components including aluminium and mercury.... and that's in each vaccine). We do not know the impact on health even if we think we know the impact on the disease.

This is why it's impossible to know what is right from wrong in this debate.

Pupuce I agree with you that there is no way of really knowing the
effectiveness or non effectiveness of vaccines and with what you say about
the noxious cocktail of substances that our babies are being injected with
in the name of public health.

What is cited as scientific 'proof' that the vaccines work is not in fact
scientific evidence. Health authorities cite the decline in disease
occurrence following the introduction of a vaccine but this argument is
significantly flawed.

Many diseases formerly rampant appear to have reduced in incidence - but
they have merely changed their names or classifications. Polio has declined
but Guillaine Barré Syndrome, another paralytic disease is increasing. Wild
measles may have declined (I personally just don't think it's diagnosed as
effectively) but atypical measles is on the increase. Mumps may not be as
common, but aseptic meningitis is escalating. Just examples...

Many of the diseases children are vaccinated against were on a natural wane
before a vaccine was created. Another factor is that our living conditions
and levels of sanitation have improved. Also, many diseases are cyclical so
will wane but then come back in a cycle.

I not only believe that vaccination does not give resistance to diseases in
any population but it makes the population more prone to diseases, although
the resulting diseases may be different. Also, there are figures
demonstrating that epidemics happen in populations of fully vaccinated
people.

In my opinion the whole premise of vaccination is flawed, I disagree that
injecting noxious substances into my children's bodies will protect them
from normally mild illnesses, to me it damages them, there is no scientific
evidence that it immunizes and the illnesses mutate to potentially more
damaging strains than what we were allegedly protecting against in the first
instance.

I do feel passionately about this as I have 3 children, two of whom I
believe to be vaccine damaged, my 3rd child is healthy and unvaxed. I'm
sorry I didn't have time to summarize it down but I have to go off line now.

I truly hope that everyone can come to a decision on vaccinations that they
feel is the right one for them and their children.

As Rhosyn says:

"I believe that vaccinating is unnatural, a mutated form of the illness goes in through an abnormal route bypassing the bodies natural defences and leaving the immune system unprepared for the attack."

Whn we contract illnesses naturally, the body begins to build up defences before any symptoms become evident. The illness has to get past all our natural defences (skin, mucus, fever, etc) before it can gain access to the major organs and tissues. As it passes these sites, immunity is built up - the symptoms are an indication that our bodies are fighting off the disease.

You then get 100% immunity and the infection prepares your body to respond more promptly and effectively to infections in the future.

When the vaccine virus is injected directly into the body it bypasses the body's natural defences, with none of the immune responses prepared. The worry is that the disease then goes deeper into the body, potentially attacking vital organs.

Vaccinations have accomplished what the immune system has evolved to prevent - placing the virus directly into the blood and therefor giving it free and immediate access to the major organs and tissues.

The results of suppressing infectious diseases in this manner may be cancer and other chronic and autoimmune diseases.

As an aside, there have been suggestions that the increase in asthema, eczema, allergies, etc, may be partially due to vaccines.

If vaccines had not been invented, Smallpox, Polio, Tuberculosis and many other illnesses would still be ravaging people's lives. How far do you take leaving your body to sort diseases out when we have the technology to stop them? You could say that not brushing your teeth would eventually make us evolve with thicker tooth enamel to protect them for longer, but I can't see Colgate going out of business!

It has not been conclusively established that the MMR vaccine is related to autism, but it IS known that Measles can kill. It is also known that catching Rubella whilst pregnant can cause the death of the foetus, and that Mumps can cause males to become sterile.

Mog - make your own choice based on medical advice and reading around. Ultimately, it is your decision. For the record, my ds had the MMR jab after I had discussed it with my GP. He put my mind at rest, and ds did not have any negative reactions to it at the time.

In actual fact most of the diseases we vaccinate against were in decline before the vaccines were introduced. I believe there are graphs to illustrate this on one of the websites I posted below.

As Rhosyn said, these things are cyclical, and will probably 'come back' (and more than likely be misdiagnosed, or rediagnosed as something else)

I really hate internet arguments, but I can't keep quiet on this one.
I have heard that old chestnut about polio being on the decline just as vaccines were introduced and I am afraid it is very misleading, in fact it is nonsense. I don't know why people continue to pedal this kind of misinformation.
It is one thing to think the risks of vaccination are too great, it is quite another to make out vaccines have not helped eradicate dangerous and deadly diseases.

This isn't helping my let down reflex

Jenny2998 - I'm worried though that you feel, in this day and age, that we have to go through a disease in order to build up a natural immunity. Would you be prepared to suffer Smallpox? You would have a great immunity to it when you were dead!

I just think that I would feel awful if ds child suffered deafness from Measles because I had decided to allow him to risk catching the disease. It is not a personal attack, and I did consider not giving ds the jab. I just felt that, weighing up the pros and cons, the risks to his health outweighed any unsubstantiated risks of Autism. I hope that I am not proved wrong!

You put that very well chinchilla.
(looks like I am chasing you around the board tonight )

Hi Chinchilla,

I second what Jenny 2998 says about natural immunity. Having an illness is the only way to build natural immunity. And it is only natural immunity that can be passed on by breastfeeding.

BTW, smallpox only kills around 33% of its victims. So I'm afraid the other 66% will have natural immunity.

As an older mum, I'm curious to know if anyone here has actually had measles, mumps or rubella? If so, do they really believe it is as dangerous as the medical profession would have us think? Or does everyone just accept the hype that the pharmaceutical companies, by way of doctors, peddle?

There was recently a quote which came from the CEO of Roche (drug company) in Australia. He said: "Behind every statistic is a vested interest". (You can check this out in the BMJ, btw.) Now can anyone honestly put hand on heart and say that the people who would have you stab your child full of toxins such as formaldehyde (used to preserve bodies, of course, as well as lining root fillings in teeth), aluminium sulphate and mercury, not to mention cells from aborted foetuses and chicken embryos, have nothing to gain from you doing so? I think not.

And I don't hear anyone extolling the virtues of the scientific studies (reported in the Lancet) which concluded that measles protected against allergies and cancer in later life.

I'll take my chances against measles any day. In a healthy, well-nourished child whose mother is willing to really nurse him/her, there is little to fear but much to gain, imo. I had measles, mumps and rubella (don't remember the latter but I have antibodies, apparently) with no ill effects. And to counter-argue another point that has been made, those at most risk from the wild virus, are, imo, those most at risk from the vaccine.

Jenny and Rhosyn, I applaud your thoughtful appraisals of the vaxing situation. Guess we'll just watch the numbers of atypical measles cases (which is very nasty), Guillaine Barré Syndrome, and aseptic meningitis rise. And rue the fact that if only we hadn't gone mad vaccinating against every illness in sight, it might not be happening...

AM

I'm an older mum and had all three of the MMR illnesses. I don't recall having measles, remember mumps because my mum caught me playing in the garden when I was supposed to be in bed and enjoyed rubella because I didn't feel ill but got time off school.

Also, my two older children have both had mumps and rubella. They were unwell for a few days but no more so than with some of these wretched viral illnesses that seem to abound nowadays.

As my dd?s jab date gets closer and closer (on Monday) I am gettting more and more jittery. A couple of months ago I read everything I could find on the subject, discussed it at length with dh and friends etc. and was ok with our decision to vaccinate in the combined version. So why is it that my normal rational "make an informed decison and stick to it" self has been slowly turned into a wavering, unsure wimp? I have found myself loking for excuses to put it off - she looks a little unwell, I think that she may be getting a cold...etc. etc. I am 99.9% sure that we will go through with it but depends whether or not I am "imagining" my dd looking ill! Will let the health visitor decide if my nerves fail me.

I had rubella, and didn't feel ill at all! But I also had mumps, and it was really ill with that, for 2 weeks. My brother got orchitis (mumps in his testicles) when we had it and had to wait 12 years to find out if he would be sterle or not - in the end he was OK, but I wouldn't like ds to be in that situation.
My Uncle has a heart murmur and eye problems from having measles.
I'll take my chances with the MMR (and I don't say that lightly, as I also have an autistic brother, so am aware of the issues involved)

When posting my last bit I read through some of the previous comments a little more carefully. One of the arguments that seemed a reasonable one to consider for me was the one of social responsibility.

It is true that a fair proportion of children who catch these diseases are ill for a while and have no lasting side affects. However, for many children who are unable to take the vaccination for medical reasons, becoming ill with these diseases is far more serious and life threatening. Pregnant women, the elderly who missed out on vaccinations,children too young to be vaccinated etc. are all very much at risk from these serious illnesses. Therefore, perhaps it is worth thinking of the social responisbility when considering these vaccinations - we are not talking about our own children in isolation. (Just a point, no personal digs intended, just thought it worth popping it into the discussion) Whatever we decide for our own children, I am sure of only one thing - it is a decision that no parent takes lightly, hence all the strong views.

Hi Jaytree,

Do you honestly think your HV will advise you against vaccinating your daughter? He/she is hardly unbiased in this decision. They are paid to vaccinate children!

If you are unsure, then delay. I implore you to follow your instincts. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. Put it off for a day, a week, a month... If you decide not to proceed now, you can always change your mind at a later date. You can't take the jab back once it's done. You say you've researched and read. So go away and read and research some more. Until you're 100% sure one way or the other.

BWs,

AM

Hi Jaytree,

Do you honestly think your HV will advise you against vaccinating your daughter? He/she is hardly unbiased in this decision. They are paid to vaccinate children!

If you are unsure, then delay. I implore you to follow your instincts. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. Put it off for a day, a week, a month... If you decide not to proceed now, you can always change your mind at a later date. You can't take the jab back once it's done. You say you've researched and read. So go away and read and research some more. Until you're 100% sure one way or the other.

BWs,

AM

Sincere apologies for not having a clue why my post has appeared twice! Can the duplication be removed by a moderator?

AM

I agree with Angelmouse - I'm awaiting that appointment card dropping through my door and know that I'll be cancelling it with the words "I'm not yet ready, I'll call back if I decide to go ahead".

It doesn't feel right to do this yet so I'm not.

I had measles and rubella - can't remember mumps but maybe I had it.
Our neighbour had measles in May... he was very ill for 24 hours and got better very quickly afterwards. His mum staued with him 24/7 when this happened...
Someone did once tell me that one of the reasons some (not all) of the vaccines were developped (presumably MMR) is because some of the illnesses can really keep a child quite ill for several days (2 weeks) and it is very difficult for mothers/parents to be taking that many days off (or have their lives "that" disrupted) if as an alternative you can vaccinate and they don't get sick.

I am not saying this is true but it is true that some of these illnesses can take a long time to heal or not be contagious... and you get no warning... so job wise it is sometimes very difficult to manage... and if you have several kids and they all get all these illnesses... can someone do the maths of how disruptive this can be to an employer/ the economy of this country ???