Worried about vaccinations - anyone else feel the same?

[ladymac]

DD is 15 weeks today. When we went for 1st jabs a few weeks ago, GP wouldn't give them because she had a cold. Since then I haven't gone back as she'd either been snuffly or we were away (jabs only done on mon afternoons).

We are going to Spain for a week on saturday and today is a jabs opportunity. Trouble is I've got really nervous about her having them. Worried about possible reactions and also if it could make her poorly for our hols.

At the same time I don't want her to get any nasty diseases.

I feel my views are somewhere in the middle of my HV and her evangelical jabs spiel, and the anti jabs brigade on the other side.

Any help/views/reassurance would be great.

I hope Gess that you do stay around and share (however wearily) your knowledge. I I'm pro-vaccine (as a concept) but obviously concerned as a parent not to damage my son. Based on the research I have done which was prompted by the information I found on MN I have decided to give my DS MMR when he is 20 months. I wasn't previously aware of the contra-indications and I'm pretty sure that my GP's surgery isn't either.

I know that sounds a bit mad saying it was Gess that talked me into it, its more that she (and others like her) gave me infomration to make a truly informed choice.

I hope that doesn't sound offensive coming from a pro-vaccinator!

Hi Spockster
I take your points.
Can I say though that the point that is being consistently ignmored is that it is not only a vaccinate or not vaccinate situation. Skimming through the thread both Gess and I at least as two ASD mums are simply suggesting that the commonalities in the susceptible kids be investigated. Surely the answer is to vaccinate the main and safe population and protect kids like my son by either not vaccinating or actually finding out what it is in the vaccination process that they are vulnerable. THAT is my frustration - the arguement always comes back to the whole population being unvaccinated when I can't think of anyone suggesting that.
I think that the problem you have with mums like me is that we have seen it. You can read all the research you like but until you have seen the differences in your child ( and the other children like my son that I have met in the last eight years) the idea of it being a coincidence just becomes pretty ridiculous.
I strongly suspect that in another life I would be posting in similsr terms to you. But I have watched my son and once you tick so many coincidence it just starts to feel like.... if it looks like a horse and it sounds like a horse no amount of stats are going to make it a short camel with a restricted hump. Is that the worst analogy ever. ( At school in the 70's people - is it even an anaology

If his autism is not linked to his immune ssystem and gut ( as DrW suggested) why did he improved massively within a short period of withdrawing the foods irritating the gut? Why else would withdrawing milk provoke the fisrt spontaneous language in two years? Why does he again regress if given gluten? Why would these have anything to do with a neurological and primarily behavioural condition?

I think the difference between you and I Spockster is that I don't actually wish to change your mind because I think your views are perfectly reasonable . I think though that on a level you feel my views are wrong and wish to alter them. I don't think that is a bad thing - I am sure it comes from a very humanitarian place. Its just that you believe that the MMR is safe but I absoloutely know in my heart that for my child it was catastrophic .
That must be frustrating for others but that is the way I feel. And for every piece of evidence ( and I actually don't include anything epedemiological as evidence - that would not have spotted thalidomide) presented I have read things from antecedents I trust that show the opposite.
So I think we have a classic agree to disagree scenario.
I have read your posts with interest though and I hope you can 'read' in my posts that I am not trying to be argumentative and i respect your opinion.

Gess - will try and register for the cab thing . Thanks for your offer to post me that article!! Speak soon I hope.

PLease forgive ALL the typos. Trying to type with my fists clenched will do that

Not at all. I have nothing against vaccination if its done in the safest way for all (why would anyone be against protecting their child against potentially fatal diseases?) I have big problems with the UK vaccination program as I think it makes vewry little sense (for example given that they give MMR to babies I think the lack of teenage booster is absolutely criminal; think that one needs revisiting and find it laughable when young adults contracting measles is blamed on low MMR uptake when a) the majority get singles anyway and b) the real fault lies with the lack of booster so MMR immunity wearing off in the affected young adult)).

I feel very lucky tbh that I think we did manage to get a reasonably clear idea of what happened to ds1 and why he is so badly afected (and the role of vaccinations is tbh borderline in his case), which has also given us an idea of ds2 and ds3's particular vulnerabilties. They probably will both receive certain vaccinations when a little older. DS3 we'll have to be very careful with because we know he is very, very vulnerable. And ultimately I don't really care what anyone else thinks about our decisions. I only have to watch ds3 in the bath aged 2 and half picking up a big rat thing saying 'here's the baddy' to think "wow, my god, how amazing".

pagwatch have CATed you, so you should have an email waiting.......

My last post "not at all" was to kewcumber btw.

Gess
My GP also refused to report DS's dramatic decline as adverse drug reaction.
My brothers ex wife took her twins to have their MMR and one imediately had a massive fit in the GP's surgery. His DD is absoloutely fine and there were no adverse long term effects. By my bros said that all the time his little girl was fitting nurse kept repeating " this is just one of those things - nothing to do with the jab ".
See there how I don't bully anyone about their choice - my brother gave his kids the MMR

yes gess thats the other thing I have learned on MN - save my money on singles and spend instead on booster in teen years. (can you get it privately - I assume you can)

"none so blind..... "

I find it staggering that if I say "my son regressed following a viral infection believed to be eczema herpeticum" (which is weird in itself as there was no brain involvment) everyone nods sagely and it gets recorded.

If I said "my son regressed following a viral infection/ecephalitis believed to be caused by attenuated measles" I would get classed as a nutter and in denia and no we won't record it as an ADR.

But if I said
"my son regressed following encephalitis caused by measles infection". I'd be back in the fold again.

what dos "epedemiological" mean?

kewcumber- if they've missed out on a booster at pre-school you can get it on the NHS in teen years!

good tip Gess - must make sure to "miss" his booster which I doubt he will need given he is having MMR at 20 months.

The pre-school shot isn't really a booster btw - it;s to catch the ones that didn't develop immunity. A teen one would be a booster in the normal sense of the word.

epidemiological means looking at the numbers (eg autism cases per year vs intro of MMR), rather than looking directly at the children who do the regressing. If the 7% fiugure is accurate then its far too small to pick up on a epidemiological study. All they tell you is that MMR does not cause autism in a large number of children (which I think is probably true). Small doesn't mean none though.

Lumping all cases of autism into one big mass with one cause is just barkingly insane.

ROFL there's no such thing .
Epidemiological studies however are studies that look at patterns with population so are pretty broad brush. Often cited but no really a fine enough tool to look at small and comlicatedtrends. Which is why they would not have picked up thalidomide

what does the pre-school booster vaccinate against? what age is it due?

I wondered particularly as my friend was affected by Thalidomide so I thought I knew quite a bit about it but hadn't heard the term before. Must make a mental note of it.

You get a booster for the 5 or 6 in 1 or whatever it is (a proper booster) and an extra MMR in case it didn;t work the first time round. Leaving MMR until 15 months slightly increases it's success rate vs giving at 13 months (not a huge amount in it).

what?
you get the 5 or 6 in 1 at 3,4,5 months old
then the MMR at 15m (or in my DDs cases, 20m)
then a booster
then a pre-school booster with the same lot all over again?
really? or have i misunderstood.

oh and of course the PCV one which i have to schedule in somehow!

Yes, I think certainly DTP + polio, not sure about Hib as they were giving a booster at a different age. Hang on:

link{http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/article.php?id=494\here}

OK just DTaP + polio + MMR.

By the way whilst accepting that giving 7 vaccinations at once is entriely safe for the majority of children I do find it interesting that the MOD during Gulf War 2 advised that where possible troops should not be given multiple vaccinations on the same day.

I find it particularly interesting as (in the very limited work done so far) the urinary profile of the GW vets with GW syndrome is identical to the profile found in many people with autism (including ds1 & actually ds3 has the same profile which is why we're careful with him. see here.

thx for immunisation link.

what is a "urinary profile"?

I know I come accross as a bossy old cow, however hard I try not too, sorry. I am actually quite squishy and nice.

Don't dismiss epidemiological studies, they can be very poewerful and pick up effects that others studies are too small to find. In fact, thalidomide was picked up as a teratogen in the early '60s primarily as a result of 3 epidemiological studies.

It's work done by the autism research unit. They've found that in many children with autism (and sometimes without such as ds3) there is a relatively high level of a compound called IAG (higher than other peaks) in the urine. The significance of this is that its believed to make the gut leaky. If your gut is leaky you become potentially more susceptible to all sorts of things (and if your blood brain barrier is leaky as well.....).

There are different routes to having a leaky gut.

This is different from the MMR cases where the gut is leaky because its ulcerated.

Removing gluten and casein and various other things from the diet appears to help many.

The Gut paper I referred to earlier on type 1 diabetes, MS etc had a leaky gut as a potential cause for these autoimmune conditions. Things which shouldn't get through getting through. There's been quite a bit of work on type 1 diabetes and wheat and milk proteins (gluten and casein being wheat and milk derived).

BTW gess that was not at all my impression of the Finnish study, so I'm off to read it again; there was a twin study too so maybe I have got them confused...

Although spockster you have to look for the right group.

As far as I know only one study set out to test the hypothesis that MMR triggered autism in a subgroup. Then for some reason (that I don't understand) they couldn't manage that (not enough power perhaps? not sure) so they tested the same old MMR responsible for the rise in autism hypothesis instead. Lumping all autism in as one big thing with one big cause, which it isn't.

Thalidomide affected babies are far easier to identify as one clear group.

Yeah, I was just responding to the people who said don't trust epidemiology 'cos it wouldn't have picked up thalidomide...when actually it did
Do you know how they identified the subgroup? Do you have a reference for that study?

not without searching. If you go to either Treating Autism or Autism one then download Wakefield's lecture slides he mentions it in one of those iirc.