Worried about vaccinations - anyone else feel the same?

[ladymac]

DD is 15 weeks today. When we went for 1st jabs a few weeks ago, GP wouldn't give them because she had a cold. Since then I haven't gone back as she'd either been snuffly or we were away (jabs only done on mon afternoons).

We are going to Spain for a week on saturday and today is a jabs opportunity. Trouble is I've got really nervous about her having them. Worried about possible reactions and also if it could make her poorly for our hols.

At the same time I don't want her to get any nasty diseases.

I feel my views are somewhere in the middle of my HV and her evangelical jabs spiel, and the anti jabs brigade on the other side.

Any help/views/reassurance would be great.

Becksmummy

That was the exact reason why I eventually decided on the MMR rather than the seperate jabs.

The length of time it would have taken my daughter to be vaccinated for MM&R in single jabs when she was at the childminders, going to toddler groups etc was something I identified as a risk.

becksmum Wakefield says a year. Clinics say 3 months I think.

pagwatch have CATed you. Lots of your posts have caught my eye as being very similar to life in our household....

elliot- well it may just be coincidence of course. DS2 I think would perhaps have been OK either way. DS3 I think we came very close with. He was tested at the autism research unit at 16 months as we had some concerns and his urinary profile was 'autistic'. In fact it was almost identical to ds1's. We tweaked his diet (removed cows milk in addition to gluten) and the lights came on. He has the same gut problems as ds1, and has the same problems with foods (headbangs hard enough to bruise on gluten for example). Aged 2 and a half he is definitely now developing normally thank god. 2 severely autistic would be very very difficult. I do think there's a big difference in inheritance of severe autism vs AS as well so should have prefaced the 3 kiddies bit with classical/regressive autism.

becksmum Wakefield says a year. Clinics say 3 months I think.

pagwatch have CATed you. Lots of your posts have caught my eye as being very similar to life in our household....

elliot- well it may just be coincidence of course. DS2 I think would perhaps have been OK either way. DS3 I think we came very close with. He was tested at the autism research unit at 16 months as we had some concerns and his urinary profile was 'autistic'. In fact it was almost identical to ds1's. We tweaked his diet (removed cows milk in addition to gluten) and the lights came on. He has the same gut problems as ds1, and has the same problems with foods (headbangs hard enough to bruise on gluten for example). Aged 2 and a half he is definitely now developing normally thank god. 2 severely autistic would be very very difficult. I do think there's a big difference in inheritance of severe autism vs AS as well so should have prefaced the 3 kiddies bit with classical/regressive autism.

DD1 has dyspraxia and various other global delays.

It may be partially genetic, but I sometimes wonder if the mercury in the old DPT jabs added to this.

Waited till DD2 was 8 months before vaccinating her and w/held MMR till she was 15 months.

She just went for the Hib booster today.

The HV will hopefully get DD1 in for her pre-school boosters soon, as she is 4 but has a FT place in pre-school and the last thing she needs is some disease that could disable her even further.

"In my opinion", my previous comment was simly answering the query about whether there was any reason not to give separate jabs. There have been large scale studies abd all have have failed to support a link between MMR and autism.One study looked at medical records of 498 autistic children, i.e. all the autistic children born in North Thames from 1979 to 1998, i.e. the period before and after the introduction of the MMR vaccine. They saw no difference in MMR vaccination rates between autistic chidren and yje none-autistic, no evidence that children vaccinated with MMR at young ages developed autism earlier than children vaccinated later, and no clustering of autism after vaccination.
The number of cases of autism diagnosed has been rising since 1979, but there was no sudden increase in the incidence of autism after the introduction of MMR. The increase in cases of autism is probably due to changes in diagnostic criteria and the index of suspicion in the minds of parent and their doctors.
Yhe routine use of separate measles and mumps vaccines was stopped in 1999, because there is no solid evidence that using separate vaccines is any safer than using MMR. Also, giving separate doses leaves children unprotected for a longer period. Vaccination programmes must minimise the number of vaccinations given (to the poor buggers, and many children would miss one or more vaccinations if separate measles and mumps injections were given, leaving them open to infection ( I am pro- as you may have gathered, but even my kids have been late getting some. because life just gets in the way sometimes).
Of course MMR may have side effects; fever seven to 12 days after immunisation; about one in 3000 have a febrile convulsion.Mostly these reactions are short-lived and not serious.
I do think AW has alot to answer for, with imm rates dropping after the publication of his study and all the media hooh-ha. To keep all our kids safe, it is important that nearly all children receive MMR. We have short memories in the developed world and forgt very quickly how evil these diseases can be and how priviledged we are to have easy and cheap access to immunisation programmes.

(Climbs off soapbox and retires, wounded but still kicking).

They all test the wrong hypthesis. The hypothesis is NOT that MMR has caused the rise in autism. The hypothesis is that MMR has triggered autism in a small number of children. The children Wakefield looked at also had severe debilitating bowel disease (ulcerated guts). This group is estimated to form about 7% of cases of autism.

The studies quoted below are completely irrlevent. Even if they were testing the right hypothesis I have no idea why autism would cluster after MMR considering it takes about 3 years on average to get a disagnosis. Would be quite staggered if it did tbh.

So yes we can all make up the hypothesis that MMR is sdafe for the majority of children and then 'prove' it. It still doesn;t answer the question of why children regressed dramatically and developed severe physical symptoms in a very short time period following MMR. Look at the actual children, and then explain why their gut is ulcerated, give an alternative explanation. Severe diarrhoea is actually quite difficult to 'not notice'. Only people who have never observed a regression say that it's not noticeable. Believe me a child stopping speaking is really quite easy to spot. Ooh we've got 50 words, oh no make that none. 8 years later? nah still none- must just have imagined those 50 early on. Luckily some of us have video to remind us of the sound of our children speaking. 'quack quack.' Doesn;t say that anymore.

The vast majorty of children will not be adversely affected by the MMR. Doesn't mean we should just pretend those that are don't exist.

Privately faced with a child who has developed encephalitis in the days following MMR and at 8 years old is still non verbal and in nappies you will find that paediatricians will tell you that they think MMR was involved in this particular case (they were there at the beginning and saw it, and have cared for the child since their time in HDU). They won't say it on record though. Don't blame them.

That is a pity gess - I'm sure you would feel more supported if they did

how does all this explain autism pre 1988 (when mmr was introduced in this country), it did exist but before then kids who behaved or developed differently were sent away to special school or institutions and were not diagnosed just given a label "mentally handicapped"

I'm with TooTicky on this one. My dd had the baby jabs (didn't even think about it then) and has had Measles sinlge and rubella single. Ds1 hasn't had any baby jabs and had singles measlese. Ds2 nothing yet. I was concerned about the dtp jabs and I found some research that linked them to cot death. In Japan they raised the age the dtp was gevn from 2 months to 2 years and their cot death rates drastically reduced. It's all down to individual choice as there are studies on both sides showing different things so you have to make your own choice. Incidentally, sids deaths are about 300 a year, meningitis around 100 children (so far less than sids.

can i ask a really really selfish question?

DD2 had her MMR on 21st June, in hospital (she has an egg allergy). i ummed and ahhed, postponed it 5 times, finally did it.

she seems fine, no fever, no illness at all - absolutely nothing.

if she was going to be affected developmentally in any way, would it have happened already?

her excema has flared up a bit. coincidence?

The first DTP vaccination was given much much later twenty odd years ago and the cot death rate was much higher then than it is now.

Do we want to return to days of kids in iron lungs and leg irons because of polio, choking because of the thick membrane across the throat with diptheria, rubella damaged deaf/blind children

If you look at statistics the rate of people dying from diseases was declining before the vaccines came out. Better health and sanitation is generally the reason why. You only have to look at Japan and America for larger numbers and do some research to see the way things were going and still are. I've read plenty and that's why I came to the decision I did.

dayofftomorrow, I used to work in an LEA Special Needs office in the mid-1980s.
The diagnosis of austism certainly did exist before 1988, the children were not labelled 'mentally handicapped' and were not necessarily sent to residential or day special schools.

(can't speak for other LEAs though)

Also better advice on how to put babies to sleep and be safe around them lowered cot death rates.

They were in the sixties and seventies (at least where we lived) things were beginning to improve by the eighties

Everyone with an ounce of humanity would want to support children with autism and their parents, but the fact remains there is no evidence for many of the beliefs in this area, including the "new variant" argument. Whilst I totally understand that some parents see a link, surely we have to make decisions for our children based on the best evidence? Any internet search can give you loads of well respected sites and publications on this issue, so I won't clog up the board, but a few points below for anyone's who's stumbled upon this and is getting more confused by the moment...

The Institute of Psychiatry tested whether there was a new variant of autism caused by MMR and associated with regression and gastrointestinal symptoms. They could find absolutely no evidence for any effect.Regression in autism is not a new phenomenon (22% to 50%)and regression occurred in children with autism long before MMR.
In a study of 278 children with core autism and 195 with atypical autism born between 1979 and 1998 "no significant difference was found in rates of bowel problems or regression in children who received the MMR vaccine before their parents became concerned about their development (where MMR might have caused or triggered the autism with regression or bowel problem), compared with those who received it only after such concern and those who had not received the MMR vaccine. A possible association between non-specific bowel problems and regression in children with autism was seen but this was unrelated to MMR vaccination."
Parents' recall of events may also have been affected by the publicity in some cases; in another study parents of autistic children with regressive symptoms who were diagnosed after the publicity alleging a link with MMR vaccine tended to recall the onset as shortly after MMR more often than parents of similar children who were diagnosed before the publicity.

Gess - well put re the hypothesis. I tried to explain this to the Health Visitor - you can imagine the reaction!
We went for separate jabs - no real hassle and the risk of catching between is miniscule, especialy as the only serious of the three is measles which you do first anyway. Rubella is a mild disease, only dangerous to pregnant woment, so girls should have the jab before old enought to getpregnant.
All vaccines have risks and potential side effects - they are listed on the info inside the box! weaving aside the autism debate, Why risk three lots of potential side effects at once? You wouldn't tkae three differnt medicines with potential side effects at one time unless it was medically necessary - not just for the convenience of the NHS surgery.
Herd immunity is a red herring. If ou were asked to sacrifice your child for the good of saving a few strangers, would you do it? or a hundred? Or a thousand?

That's frankly ridiculous; no-one is suggesting that anyone "sacrifice" their child or anypne else's! And herd immunity os most certainly not a red herring. All of these infections can cause serious, illness or have long-lasting consequences and should not be trivialised. If herd immunity is not achieved, there is a risk that infectious diseases will return and cause epidemics that will almost certainly result in death and disability, and 95% immunisation is required for this. "Scares" have resulted in immunisation levels below this in some areas and we should all be worried about this.

how on earth is herd immunity a "red herring"?

it works. It stops kids who CANNOT, due to, say lowered immunity, have the jabs. Unvaccinated kids ARE relying on this herd immunity, while not contributing to it themselves.

no one is asking anyone to sacrifice their child. They are asking them to take a small, calculated risk, both for their own good and the good of society.

The MMR is pretty thoroughly tested, its the most tested vaccine in the world iirc.

This is NOT the case for the singles.

am wondering various things.

how autism manifests in children who have not had MMR.
anyone know?
are these children autistic from birth or do symptoms suddenly manifest at a particular age and lead to developmental regression?

is there a genetic element? are some children more susceptible? could autism in such children be triggered by other as yet unidentified environmental factors? but because so many children have had MMR, these other factors have not been uncovered, as may be more subtle and 'hidden' by MMR ?

There are an awful lot of questions regarding autism and given the way AW seems to have gone about things (eg injecting a child with an experimental drug, without permission) I would tend to be sceptical of any results arising from his work.

agree re herd immunity.
We all benefit from it.

my very limited understanding cat is that, at worst, there may be a VERY small percentage, say 5%, of AUTISTIC kids (ie I am NOT saying 5% of the population) who had their autism triggered by a chemical, pos thermiserol, in the vaccine.

I don't think anyone is pretending vaccination is utterly risk free. But it is a very very small risk, from what I can see, as opposed to the risk of vaccinating NO ONE.

The trouble is, nowadays its generally ok not to vaccinate, due to herd immunity. Your kid will be ok. Maybe not the immuno-suppressed pregnant woman who s/he passes rubella to though.

luckily the immune system is designed to recognise and usually cope with more that one type of infection at a time, when we go into the big, wide world germs and parasites that come into contact with our bodies are not just of one species. The body can therefore produce a proper immune response to a vaccination containing several antigens.

There is also the case of risk assessment, combined vaccination involves one or two trips to the local gp or clinic. The single jabs (unlicensed therefore what are the standards involved in production, distribution and storage) would involve many trips to a distant clinic which does not have medical records of that child or responsibility for follow up putting babies and toddlers at risk because of their journey - far more children are injured or worse on the roads than have vaccine reaction. But this is thought to be good parenting

god thats a good post dot

WHY am I here, on yet another vaccination thread? aaargh.

also if no one vaccinates herd immunity will fall less people have natural immunity having had the disease in childhood in the seventies and eighties and the disease will re emerge and may have mutated