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Worried about vaccinations - anyone else feel the same?

200 replies

ladymac · 16/07/2007 10:13

DD is 15 weeks today. When we went for 1st jabs a few weeks ago, GP wouldn't give them because she had a cold. Since then I haven't gone back as she'd either been snuffly or we were away (jabs only done on mon afternoons).

We are going to Spain for a week on saturday and today is a jabs opportunity. Trouble is I've got really nervous about her having them. Worried about possible reactions and also if it could make her poorly for our hols.

At the same time I don't want her to get any nasty diseases.

I feel my views are somewhere in the middle of my HV and her evangelical jabs spiel, and the anti jabs brigade on the other side.

Any help/views/reassurance would be great.

OP posts:
FillydoraTonks · 17/07/2007 10:50

but what is this THING about "natural immunity"?

why on earth is it "better"?

CatIsSleepy · 17/07/2007 10:51

immunity is immunity however you acquire it...

FillydoraTonks · 17/07/2007 10:53

well i'd have thought so.

it it the usual natural is better malarky?

CatIsSleepy · 17/07/2007 10:53

this may be a silly question, but is it not possible to make the vaccine without thermiserol?

dayofftomorrow · 17/07/2007 10:56

natural immunity follows from having had the disease so it is often stronger as the immunity is produced from the germ causing the disease that person when that person comes into contact with the disease again they would not get ill and cannot pass it on to someone

a vaccination is made from a killed or weakened form of the causative germ so immunity is very slightly different but close enough for the person not to become ill or just to have a very mild reaction when they come into contact with disease and also not to spread it as the germ hasn't multiplied enough in their body

FillydoraTonks · 17/07/2007 10:57

oh they do now

I suppose part of my here re thermisrl (can't spell, sorry) is that there its a mercury compound, there are mercury compounds everywhere, but esp in fish. So have always wondered whether those cases would also be triggered by fish. But then is there not some link between autism and lack of omega 3s, or an enhanced need for them, or similar?

Am NOT being at all flippant here, btw. But I do think the situation is very complex and vaccination is a red herring, albeit one with serious repercussions.

fearscape · 17/07/2007 10:58

Re rubella jab (only giving it to pre-pubescent girls) - no vaccination is 100% effective. One of my friends recently found out during pregnancy screening she isn't immune to rubella despite having the jab as a child. So the idea of vaccinating everyone is the "red herring" of herd immunity - to protect the unborn babies of non-immune mothers.

Will probably have x-posted a hundred times, but herd immunity is not a sacrifice. It is supposed to be recipricol, although I appreciate there are a small minority of vaccine-damaged children for who this is not the case. Herd immunity may already have protected your child from diseases they have not (yet) been vaccinated against.

dayofftomorrow · 17/07/2007 10:58

thiomersal is a preservative and prevents bacterial growth in the vaccination before use there are various alternatives but may not be appropriate as some can react with the active ingredient

coppertop · 17/07/2007 11:03

CIS - I have 2 boys with autism. With hindsight ds1 had signs pretty much from birth. He spent several days in SCBU because he refused to have anything in his mouth. As a young baby he hardly slept at all. On a good day he would sleep for around 6hrs out of 24 but rarely for longer than 20 minutes at a time. When he got past the constant screaming phase he was very very placid. He was happy to sit by himself in his own little world. His development was very disordered. At 2.5yrs he didn't talk but could read words. He could hardly use his hands (hypersensitive hands) but was amazing with a computer.

Ds2 seemed much more NT as a young baby but always had traits. He had an obsession with circles and the colour red. He was fascinated by spinning and (like many children with autism ) would spend ages just watching the washing machine go round. He spoke much earlier than ds1 did (around 20mths) but his first words were numbers, shapes and colours rather than 'social' language. He had some regression but not to the extent that children affected by the MMR do/did. He had some words at 10mths but those disappeared until almost a year later.

IMHO there is a massive difference between my 2 boys and those children who develop in the usual way and then suddenly lose everything almost overnight. Very few parents of children with autism blame the MMR. I also think the idea that parents didn't notice their child's autism until the time of the MMR is a load of bollards. Even if you don't realise at the time that your child has autism, with hindsight you can see it. Very different to having a child suddenly regressing within a matter of days.

pagwatch · 17/07/2007 12:18

Coppertop
Thank you for your post.
I am keeping away from the keyboard with some difficulty over this issue. For others this is a heated debate about research and being pro or anti vaccine. That is fine - that is what this board is for. For me though it is always about my son and I find the point scoring and yah boo tone of some of the poster pretty bloody difficult.
I had to post though to thank you for your comments. My son did regress very very quickly and to have people constantly suggest that I either decided to imagine skills and ignore ASD traits because I wanted to link his condition to the MMR is difficult. Equally difficult is the alternative - that I had just not noticed that my DS2 was severely delayed and experiencing profound problems.
Your description of your children shows what I have always believe that parents don't want to blame or fit their child to any scenario - they just want to understand their child so that they can best love and care for them.
I also find it infuriating that the minute I suggest that my son was damaged by vaccine I get lectured about deadly diseases and cast in the light of some anti-vaccine advocate.
I actually have never advised or suggested that anyone avoid vaccination. I simply believe that for some reason my child was peculiarly vulnerable and that a number of children seem also to have reacted the same way. My preference would be for somebody somewhere to actually ( gasp!!!) take some of the parents seriously and do some decent rresearch into the commonalities of those affected children.

The heartless truth is that I don't care if every child in the country has the MMR and the whole vaccine programme. I just don't care.I know that is an awful thing to say but I don't. It is up to every parent to protect their child as they see fit. That is their right and it is not for me to to lecture them or change their minds. But I think my kids are vulnerable and I choose out until someone can give me an alternative reason why my son had a decline akin to a major head trauma . I believe that is my right.

ELF1981 · 17/07/2007 12:41

I find this thread very sad

CatIsSleepy · 17/07/2007 12:48

coppertop-thanks for v. interesting post

I am sure the whole MMR question is very emotive for parents of autistic children.

Pagwatch-I think we can agree that a lot more research into autism needs to be done...as I alluded to in an earlier post I am sure there must be a) genetic factors and b) environmental factors at work in autism which need to be uncovered. The trouble is with this kind of multi-factorial condition is that uncovering/disentangling these factors is extremely complex...hopefully there is research on-going.

ladylush · 17/07/2007 12:49

That was a thought provoking post pagwatch. You are right, we need to do what is best for our own children. Like you, I have concerns about the vax - esp combined - and I do feel some children are susceptible to vax damage (like I said, seems more common in boys)and this concerns me.

gess · 17/07/2007 12:51

The "children are able to cope with lots of bacteria/viruses at once" is faintly rdicidulous. They're not necessarily designed to cope with several childhood infections at once. In fact catching measles and mumps in the same year of life does slightly increase the risk of developing an autistic spectrum disorder. Search on pubmed found the reference there before. Catching rubella very early in pregnancy is a recognised cause of autism.

Wakefield is very much pro vaccination by the way. Just safe. He;s found that there were brand effects, and the dodgiest brand has now been withdrawn.

Incidentally my son did not regress following vaccination, he regressed following a naturally aquired herpes infection. This has been accepted (Iand never questioned, met with nods and murmurings of agreement) by the medical profession and is written in his diagnosis letter. If you search for Wakefield's theory and read what he actually said his opinion is that in some susceptible children a viral infection can trigger the regression. In fact he has worked on herpes as well- this bit presumably isn't under dispute. ie it is accepted by the medical profession that a viral infection can and does cause autism (search for herpes and autism on pubmed- some of the autistic like regressions there were in teenagers!)

There are many different types of bowel disease found in autism. You need to distinguish between them. You can't just lump them all together. Autistic enterocolitis as described by Wakefield has been accepted as existing and as being novel. The cause is the bit under dispute, not the condition. Part of the reason it is poorly recognised is that you need to perform a colonoscopy to diagnose it. I don't think that can be done in the UK anymore. It is treatable though to a certain extent (the bowel disease), and is incredibly painful untreated so that's rather a shame.

Richard Lathe's book autism the brain and the environment is an interesting read. He invented a vaccination (the one for rabies), he advises as vaccination being one way to protect against autism (as it protects against encephalitis), but he still thinks that to suggest that approx 5 - 10% of cases of autism have been caused by MMR is entirely "reasonable" (his words). He lists the differences between that group and other subtypes of autism. He;s not an anti vaccination campaigner, he;s pro jabs but also recognises that that doesn't mean you have to deny it can ever happen.

DS1 attends an SLD/PMLD school. It;s been open since the 60's and has always taken the 'worst' cases locally, of learning difficulties. These were not children who could hide. Parents stay around after theiur children leave so we get to chat. One mum (now a govenor) had a dd at the school 20 odd years ago (her dd is now in her 30s or 40's). She said she's always staggered when she goes round the school at the number of children with autism in the junior years. DS1's class is a class of 6 severely/profoundly autistic boys- she said it was unheard of, a whole clalss of autistic kids, and these are not children with LD's plus ASD's these are (as the escorts say' "ooh you know very autistic") these children did not used to be at the school but they couldn't be anywhere else-0 nowhere else would have coped (and no it wasn't misdiagnosis, the biggest population in the school was children with DS). She said she just walks into classes and spots autism everywhere. Thinking back she can think of a handful of children spread across the school.

The changes are now happening in adult services as the cohort begins to grow up. We had a visit from someone running a home for severely autistic adults and he said he expects the numbers of such homes to increase dramatically over the next few years. Someone asked why and he simply replied 'becasue they're needed, there is not enough provison and numbers are increasing all the time". He was talking about the need for highly specialised services.

Note I am not linking MMR with the rise.

Most studies on regression etc are completely unreliable. There is no accurate way of recording it and anyway records aren't kept. DS1 is dxed as classically autistic, yet it is accepted (and says in the dx letter) that he regressed following herpes.

The majority of "cause of autism" studies don't even recognise that there are different subtypes. Most work on autism on the higher functioning end of the spectrum because it is so difficult to examine the lower functioning end. Wakefiled and Murch were the only 2 people in the UK (AFAIK) with the skills to perform colonoscopies. If you think anyone can do it search and read my thread about our local hospital being unsure whether or not ds1 had broken his ankle, because they didn't have the skills to find out. In the end they decided not to plaster him as they didn;t think they would be able to get the plaster off. Imagine being sent home being told 'yes your child may have broken their leg, but we can't tell because despite 5 people holding him down we couldn't get the x-ray we needed and we don;'t know how we'd get a plaster off anyway'. Last time I took him to the doctor it was because I thought he might have a raging throat infection. The doctor didn;t manage to examine him. People woirking with the severe end oif the spectrum (as Wakefield did) need incredibly specialised skills. Without them these children will not get examined or diagnosed (an presumably thwe condition he described will cease to exist- eyes tight shut can;t see can';t see)

Autism is a mass of different syndromes. At the AS end probably it is highly heritable as AS. At the severe end it is heritable, but in a different way. The family histories are full of autoimmune conditions, not autism.

Interesting paper in Gut magazine published at the end of last year. It didn't refer to autism, but it referred to autoimmunity including type 1 diabetes and MS. The model was for all intents and purposes a variation of Wakefield's model for the development of autism. It was the model that we had used back in 2002 when deciding what to do with our newborn ds2. Gut journal is highly respected by the way, and I personally think the paper was im[portant (even though it sensibly steers well clear of autism).

Of course the majority of people can be vaccinated perfectly safetly. Enough is known about potential risk factors that it would be relatively easy to screen those who needed modified schedule before they had the jab.

Wouldn't it be lovely? A world with hideous disease long forgotten because of vaccination AND a word with limited vaccine damage because vulnerable children were screened out and were given modified programmes. Never quite understood what is so bad about that.

dayofftomorrow · 17/07/2007 12:55

Even if you are normally 200% in favour of all vaccination when it comes to taking DC1 for the very first time guaranteed you will get every possible doubt coming into your head

even with a risk on 1 in a million if you are that one (which means that somewhere in uk it will happen each year) for you it is total disaster, but still lower risk than many things in life

ELF1981 · 17/07/2007 12:55

What I found horrible when debating over the MMR is that the HV's all brushed away my comments and were trying to make her have her jab at 12 months. Luckily every time we went to get weighed etc she would have a cold so they'd not do the jab, because they really did want her to have it ASAP.

Looking into the singles, there is the expense and the travel to take into consideration, time off work, and the thought that you could give one vaccine but they may become sick with something else.

In the end she had her MMR at nearly 18 months, but it took a lot of wrestling with my thoughts to finally take her and have it done (actually DH took her, because I havent taken her to any since the 1st set when she screamed and passed out, she may be okay with them now but I'm traumatised!) and if there does turn out to be something "wrong" with her, then I would always wonder what if.

I find it sad that there is nobody really in the NHS to turn to on this - everybody seems to push for the MMR, and as parents you are made to feel like damned if you do and damned if you dont.

gess · 17/07/2007 12:56

pagwatch, I can send you the Gut journal article if you want. I do think it describes what may be happening in the particularlyl vulnerable (caught my eye as it describes a model for diabetes (type 1) and we have loads of that in the family- type 1- but the mechanism they give for the development of diabetes is..... wait for it....... leaky gut followed by gluten and/or casein.....!!!!) Let me know and I'll send you a copy.

Entirely agree with your sentiments btw. I try desperately to keep off these threads for the reasons you mention so clearly. I think I'm going to have to delete my mumsnet membership though.

Spockster · 17/07/2007 12:57

It's really not yah booing and points scoring, it's just that strong feelings sometimes come over that way on this forum. For one child in the world to be damaged by a vaccine is one child too many, and I am sure it's not just me who crosses their fingers and holds their breath whenever their child receives any injection or any medicine, hoping they are doing the right thing! No one is suggesting parents are deluded or making things up or not noticing severe symptoms. The evidence just points to any time association between MMR and the development of autism, even the "atypical" sudden onset kind with regression, as being a coincidence. I know it is a bit counter-intuitive, but that's what the evidence suggests and the potential harm that can be done by parents being too scared to get their kids immunised, and these diseases being seen in large numbers again in the developed world in the 21st century is very scary indeed.

gess · 17/07/2007 12:58

daqyoff- agree - but it actually woudn't be that diffcult to start to identify the 'likely to be in the 1 in a million' group. If they did that, then I would have a lot more confidence.

gess · 17/07/2007 13:00

which evidence spokster???

All the papers I;'m aware of that have claimed that, have tested the wrong hypothesis. i.e. they've tested that MMR has caused the rise in autism. OIr they've done bizarre things like look at GP referals (I checked as I was referred via my HV so I did a general - how did you get referred post- it'll be on here somewhere and lots of people didn't go via the GP).

If you can point to a publication that has examined the affected children directly and found no temporal link then I would be very interestged to read it.

Heathcliffscathy · 17/07/2007 13:01

jimjams i admire you so much for keeping on keeping on taking the time and trouble to post in the sensible balanced way you do on this.

ladylush · 17/07/2007 13:01

Me too. Ds had a lot of wind/tummy problems as a baby even though he was bfed. I didn't want to take chances.

amidaiwish · 17/07/2007 13:10

gess, pagwatch, coppertop - thanks for your input. i for one have found your posts very informative and interesting.

mine have both had the MMR, dd2 just a few weeks ago and i worry constantly whether it was the right thing. but i've done it now and fingers crossed no reaction so far.

Spockster · 17/07/2007 13:25

gess have you read the Finnish study (A Patja et al. Serious adverse events after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination during a fourteen-year prospective follow up. Pediatric Infectious Diseases Journal 2000 19: 1127-1134)? Also the North Thames one (B Taylor et al. Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: no epidemiological evidence for a causal association. Lancet 1999 353: 2026-2029).
It is true that no evidence of an association is not the same thing as evidence that there is no association, butit is of course much harder to prove no association and so this is unlikely to be done!

gess · 17/07/2007 13:36

Yes and both examined the wrong hypoethesis.

Brent taylor et al actually had weird graphs because it looked as if there was a massive rocketing of autism dx following MMR introduction (especially when remembering timing of catch up campaigns) but even when accepting their interpretation they still had the hypothesis that MMR was the cause of the rise in autism. That is not Wakefield's hypothesis.

The Finnish study looked at children with actue reactions to MMR. The author said it was not deisgned to pick up autism cases (so unsurprisingly didn't find any) It relied on adverse drug reactions (and for comparison there is a mumsnetter whose son was admitted to HDU following the MMR and it was not recorded as an ADR). Any potential ADR is meant to be recorded. They're not. ADR's are known to be frighteningly underecorded. It only identified 34 children with any sort of reaction. Then did some weird thing again of trying to tie in with autism dx (which even if had been related would probably have taken at least 2 years plus to get). One hospital in Helsinki has 47 children with inflammatory bowel disease; the finnish paper found not one case in millions, etc etc. That work was part funded by Merck by the way (who also manufactured the MMR brand used in the study)