We said no to the Nasal flu spray, but it was given anyway

[Stevecam]

Hi. We found out today that after giving the flu Nasal spray permission form with no selected, our daughter was STILL given it. We are going to speak to the headteacher this morning to confirm what happened and if our daughter was given the vaccine against our expressed permission.

Has anyone else been in this position before? This isn't a discussion about whether children should have the vaccine or not, that is down to everyone's personal opinion about the matter, but if it has been given without permission, it's a pretty serious issue we think.

Parents must consent. They really shouldn't,t give it without consent. So kick up a fuss. The nurses giving it are at fault.
What if the child had a severe allergy to a component or Was post bone marrow transplant, or had severe asthma. These are absolute contraindications. A lot of parents turn down the vaccine on religious grounds. Porcine gelatine is used in the manufacturing. The school/ nurses can't just ride over parents wishes.
In your case it might have been a parental preference (which in this country you have the right to have)but it could be really dangerous

I would be fuming. I've refused it for both my DC too. They had it lady year and DS1 had a 2 month issue after with watering sore eyes and a sore infected nose.

I had the opposite. Said yes to vaccine for both kids and neither recieved it due to form not being returned. It was!

I'd be livid!

I'm pro vax BUT as several others have said there could for all the vaccinator knew, have been medical even life threatening reasons why you had not given permission.

I was a nurse in a past life, this would be viewed as a serious failing by nmc.

@BathshebaDarkstone I am again not going into reasons behind our decision, clearly this thread is split on that. My thread is about if other parents have been in the same situation and how they resolved it.

I have no idea what you are having to go through of course, but in our particular school, we know more parents that opted out, than opted in and this is just after the fact when we spoke to them about it. However this didn't influence our decision at all. I will note though that most children in her class DID have it according to our daughter, but that is not a reflection on whether any decision is right or wrong. I do not know how all parents formed their decision, but it is a parents responsibility to do their own legitimate research and come to their own conclusion, about their own child.

How does this work in your child's school? Are you asking all the parents as to what they decided? What if one of them said their child didn't have the spray? Would you remove your own child or ask for that child that didn't have it to be removed? I am interested to know, as you just gave me the guilt trip lol.

It is a minefield for all parents these days. The bottom line is, if it is not mandatory yet and you were asked for expressed permission, to which you said no, that means no.

If we don't want our own children to be sprayed with stuff or injected with stuff, it is our decision as parents. I am sure it is just an honest mistake. We will get to the bottom of it and hopefully, make sure it doesn't happen in the future, of course apart from a runny nose (at the moment) our child is fine, but that's not the point is it?

I will add something that is also potentially quite important to mention in all of this, our daughter has never had the flu before.

This sounds very negligent on the part of everyone involved.

I'm pro-vaccinating, but there are some people who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons, and this could have had very serious, even life threatening consequences, if your child was one of those people. They need to check properly that parents have consented, and as a minimum, I'd be wanting them - school plus the medical team responsible for administering the vaccines - to review their procedures to reduce the chances of this happening again. They certainly shouldn't be depending on a 6 yr old to speak out and tell them their parents said they shouldn't have the vaccine.

She is not a "poor daughter" - some responsible person has taken the trouble to protect her from a nasty illness. She is a lucky girl.

OK so there was obviously an admin hiccough, but in the long run your DD will benefit from it. It is not as if someone had amputated her leg!

I don't see how the fact that your daughter has never had flu is relevant to this at all.

The flu vaccine is given regardless of whether someone's had flu before because flu strains mutate so often.

@Blossomdeary our daughter has never had a nasty illness, and they just gave her the mild version of one to her. Is that your definition of a "responsible person"? lol

I certainly wouldn't call her a lucky girl from that.

Hi Steve,
This isn't a school issue it is a nursing issue.

The flu vaccination is an NHS programme that is implemented and administered by the school nursing team for your borough and should be led by the school nurse team allocated to your school.

I can't comment on how they manage the issue of consent in terms of if a form doesn't come back they vaccinate anyway but that does seem negligent.

In your case however it was clearly marked on the form you as parents were not giving consent for this vaccine. They can't overrule this.
You need to speak to the head, this is not their fault but they have to liaise with the nursing team, explain what has happened and ask to speak to the lead nurse for your school. He/she needs to explain why/how this happened, policy & procedure and answer why they went against your explicit, written wishes. You can't emphasise CONSENT enough. There is an NHS consent policy that should be followed at all times.

@JosephineMaynard her body could be capable of adapting itself. None of us know the answer to this one. I felt it was relevant, after 6 years, her bodies own ability when it comes to immunity was clearly fine.

I am getting dragged into the yes no debate again. Which I wanted to avoid as they are just our opinions! We are all parents here wanting what we think is best for their own child. As soon as it goes against permissions though, there are more serious consequences to consider.

@Mygodlikechin, we will take it up with all of them and work out what has happened. We really do not know yet. If we did not make it clear enough on the form that by saying no, that we actually didn't mean yes, then we will hold our hands up and admit it was our fault. I guess at the moment, we simply do not know. The answers are coming.

Regardless of the yes / no debate it's a monumental cock up - what if she was allergic to something in it for example. I'd be wanting an explanation.

(Fwiw mine always have it)

How was the consent form set out?

I am assuming it explained about the vaccination programme, the way the vaccine would be administered and by whom & the date/location.

Then at the end had a yes tick box or no tick box and possibly signature of parent/guardian?

If so and you clearly ticked no then I can't see how the error could be made.
If the consent form was vague and ambiguous then the nursing team need to review and revise or if it was centrally produced on behalf of the NHS it needs feeding back that the format is so bad that the nursing team can't tell if consent has been given or not.

But if a clinician can't tell clearly is consent has been given then they should not administer anything until they can obtain clear consent from the patient or in this case you.

Even if on the day if you had ticked no and your daughter said she wanted it then the nurses still can't overrule unless they can prove that your daughter is Gillick competent, knows her full medical history, fully understands about the vaccine and any contraindications, side effects etc

her body could be capable of adapting itself. None of us know the answer to this one. I felt it was relevant, after 6 years, her bodies own ability when it comes to immunity was clearly fine.

I'm not quite sure I'm understanding this argument. Is the theory that, because she's never had flu, her immune system is clearly capable of adapting and fighting it off? Maybe. Or maybe she hasn't ever been exposed to flu, and that's why she's never had it.

Regardless, if you're complaining to school, I'd focus on the potentially very serious error in giving a child a vaccine when the parents have refused consent, rather than muddying the water with talk how she's never had flu and talk about does she really need the vaccine or not.
The bottom line is that she shouldn't have been vaccinated when you'd refused consent, whatever your reasons are.

If we did not make it clear enough on the form that by saying no, that we actually didn't mean yes, then we will hold our hands up and admit it was our fault. I guess at the moment, we simply do not know.

It really should not be possible for a yes / no question on a consent form to be so vague that a nurse or doctor can't tell from the form whether or not a parent has consented. If they try saying that you didn't make it clear enough on the form, then personally I would be complaining about the form being so badly worded or formatted that it's not fit for purpose.

Personally I think you and the other mums who decided not to let your kids have the vaccine are wrong. There are loads of mums at our school like this who do there own 'research' (googling) and form opinions on the basis of pretty poor evidence. Drives me mad.

However wrong I think your decision is I think it's very serious that your lack of consent was ignored and not taken seriously. I would be making a formal complaint

I would be very upset. we have just had this letter and my DD is asthmatic and is on steroids. Therefore she has had the flu jab. I will be rejecting the nasal spray as per the advice of the GP so if they were to give that to my DD there would be serious health repercussions as it affects the lungs.
please make sure you raise an official complaint.

@JosephineMaynard "If we did not make it clear enough on the form that by saying no, that we actually didn't mean yes, then we will hold our hands up and admit it was our fault." I was being semi sarcastic with that one, sorry.

I will keep trying to move on from the yes / no discussion as it is just our opinions. As parents we do our own research via various means, not just the internet, book still exist of course. I don't know how they do their research.

@Dizzybintess this once instance probably will not effect our child, but yes we will consider the wider implications when making our complaint. There are plenty of what ifs, and if there is a problem with how this system for flu spray is administered, we would rather it get solved without anyone getting harmed than waiting for the day when something much more serious happens.

I would be livid and I really would not get over it. There are many legit reasons why it is not suitable for everyone. The op says the dd has a runny nose, if this was the case of the time of the spray it should not have been given, even with consent.

Maybe the schools I work with are more organised than some here. They know in advance that the nhs are coming and why. It goes onto newsletters/calendars. Be a bit daft then just turning up without consulting the school, because how would they know about Inset days, class trips etc?
On the day the teachers have a list of who is going and who is staying. doesn't matter if it's the nhs weigh, the dentist or the spray. Someone escorts the children with consent and someone stays with those that haven't got consent.

@bloodyteenagers I am not sure if you mean our daughter, but she didn't have a runny nose before the spray, but did after, but this is natural after the vaccine apparently. We are not concerned about the minor side effects, but the more serious ones explained in the leaflet we will be concerned about, particularly if we didn't give permission, lets hope it never comes to that anyway.

I think it might be very interesting to know where it went wrong, many people discuss and practice these things often, so when it goes wrong, it needs to be investigated. If anyone else wants me to ask any particular questions in the meeting I could try and ask them, just let me know.

some people just need to fuck off. it is awful. poor you. i would be devastated. yes i have heard of this and the outcome was to keep child off school on day of vaccination and for the shedding period. negligent and whoever administered the vaccine can be struck off so report it. helios homeopathy have the vaccine in potency which may help to undo it (wait for it....). i would be completely furious.

she should be having it anyway...oh ok god...

OP you are right, this isn't about whether children should or shouldn't have the vaccine. It's about who decides if a child has the vaccine and your decision as a parent has been taken away.

Speak to the Head Teacher and the school nurse as there really has been dons huge clock ip here. I would also go above the school nurses head if you don't get a satisfactory answer.

The only thing I think you can hope to achieve here is a change in policy to ensue this never happens again. But I do think you should, for the sake of any other family this could happen to, follow this up, pushing for a policy change.

This document on Consent is worth reading and sets out the responsibility for ensuring consent is given is clear.