Abortion rate highest ever - I'm sorry I just don't buy the reason suggested for this...

[CountessDracula]

"But pregnancy advice groups said the figures probably reflected poor access to contraceptive services"

What utter tosh

You can buy condoms in many loos in clubs and pubs. In any chemist or 24hour shop.

You have access to family planning clinics and doctors with free contraception

You can buy the morning after pill over the counter ffs

Shouldn't people take a bit more responsibility and get themselves to these places and get some bloody contraception?

Oh Paula I have to stop engaging with you on this issue sorry.

i dont get the anti abortion = misogyny argument

do you know what ladies. i kind of get where paula is coming from.

but i put myself first.

like i do when i shop in a supermarket (don't kid yourself paula, people are starving and dying because you shop in tescos/sainsburys/asda)

like i do with the clothes that i wear...which because i like a bargain in hennes or topshop are maybe made by children.

morality isn't black and white.

i understand. abortion is murder. in much the same way that meat is murder (do you eat meat) and that global capitalism is murderous.

At the hear of misogyny is the desire to contol a woman's fertility - it's complicated, but banning ethical abortion is obviously a huge part of this

At the heart..

And the thing is, abortion will always happen. What the Pro-Life lobby are calling for is an end to legal abortion.

Women will always have abortions. They just won't have safe ones. Is this what Pro-Lifers really want?

So, a woman who has four children and can't cope with a fifth ends up dying from uncontrolled bleeding or infection.

Is that what they really want?

A big problem is that too little research is done into what people learn, not what they are told.

Completly agree. A few people have mentioned the sex ed kids all get in school and so they have no excuse for not knowing.

Well i teach in secondary and I can assure you that I'd be astounded if any of the kids left their sex ed classes with a clear idea of details abotu sex/pregnancy/STD's etc.

Most sex ed classes are taught by embarressed, undertrained, underresourced teachers who are specialists in other subjects.

Moving onto the condom issue, there is still a social stigma about buying condoms. And whilst its easy to dismiss this if you don't suffer from it yourself it is very real for nervous/sheltered/young men and women.

MAP, finding out what chemists are open can be a nightmare. Remember the MAP is 'valid' for up to 72 hrs. If you have unprotected sex on friday you need to take it by monday evening. Most chemists by me close at midday on saturday. None open on sunday, at work/college on monday. Now if you relaly really beleive you're pregnant yes you will make the effort to get to one, but if you don't think it will happen to you - possibly due to bad peer education, you don't make that extra effort. and then when you do get out in your lunchhour on monday, the pharmacist is out, the assitant repeats your request really loudly and then tells you to come back in alf an hour. You know you're going to be late back in, and to top it off the pharmacist then asks you very personal and intimate details.

Finally, remember that alot of abortions used to be illegal/unreported. So how on earth can we be sure that the total number of abortions is going up?

Of course people who are pro-life do not want unsafe abortions. We don't want any at all.

Also as I said before I don't agree with the death penalty and I have already answered the rape question loads of times.

so do you shop in a supermarket paula? wear diamonds? bank with companies which make money out of the arms trade (almost all of the big banks)?

seriously you are morally implicated in the murder of humans.

morality is a continuum.

Muminfife, I don't belive that termination of pregnancy should only be reserved for women who have been raped. I am pro choice. I was pointing out thet PPBs argument was inconsistant. One minute she was saying that all life is sacredd, and thensaid sge would sanction abortion in the case of rape.

"And the thing is, abortion will always happen. What the Pro-Life lobby are calling for is an end to legal abortion.

Women will always have abortions. They just won't have safe ones. Is this what Pro-Lifers really want?"

very true, very true, Bubble...

Matin Bishop I do think that even a child of a rape victim deserves to live. I did say that the best possible outcome would be for the child to be born. However as sex was not concentual and probaly traumatic I don't think that a woman should be forced to have the baby in that instance. I still don't feel entirely comftorable with it to be honest but I just don't think it should be forced.

so you do feel that in some circumstances the needs of the moter outweigh the 'rights' of he child/foetus?

So you do agree that a sentient human is more deserving of rights than a non sentient foetus?

There is a really good essay by Carl Sagan and Ann Duryan called "Abortion - is is possible to be both 'Pro-life' and 'Pro-choice'?

It really gets to the nub of issues; I'd recommend it. You can get snippets online and its in his book Billions and Billions if anyone has it.

here's a bit of it

I think that was a very good article Mt. I have a lot of respect for Carl Sagan. Certainly one of the great minds of our times. I understand where he is coming from. I actualy understand where most of you are coming from. I truly understand your points of view. Understanding them and accepting them are two diffrent things. I find myself unable to accept The wise Mr. Sagans viewpoint that abortions should be allowed up to the point of cognitive development. I still feel that its a human life that needs protected. At the end of it is a child that will think one day. I understand that he is trying to comprimise and I think that is admirable but I just don't feel comftorable with that.

If a child is born unwanted, it will more easily carry on into life feeling that life is without value. Do people who value life go out to kill others? What are the benefits of bringing children into the world who are seriously unwanted? Is it really better to let these people grow up without love and without caring whether they or other people live or die? There is quite enough suffering in the world. Bringing back illegal abortion can only add to the misery.

In the past, women churned out children if they had sex. The infant death rate was very high, the maternal death rate was very high, the incidence of STS was very high, and there were no cures. Life was also cheap.

Infant and maternal death rates were so high due to lack of todays medical technology. Its not anywhere near as high as it used to be.

Sorry of course its traumatic.