Abortion rate highest ever - I'm sorry I just don't buy the reason suggested for this...

[CountessDracula]

"But pregnancy advice groups said the figures probably reflected poor access to contraceptive services"

What utter tosh

You can buy condoms in many loos in clubs and pubs. In any chemist or 24hour shop.

You have access to family planning clinics and doctors with free contraception

You can buy the morning after pill over the counter ffs

Shouldn't people take a bit more responsibility and get themselves to these places and get some bloody contraception?

Smiley - Well first we need to define what we mean by 'life' 'a life' and 'alive' and at what point does said 'life' become imbued with rights.

Again, if you are talking of suffering - the only thing at issue IMHO in these debates then this is central and can't be fudged. It makes people uncomfortable to equate a late term foetus with a dumb animals but effectively that's what it is; and certainly not conscious. Anyone who's had a baby observes it's burgeoning consciousness as it develops and becomes more aware of itself and its environment in the first year.

So when trying to tease out the logic of what people mean by such claims as 'all life is sacred' - 'life begins at conception' etc a consensus has to be reached - and at least a debate had - about what 'life' in such a context means.

Muminfife
I actually love knitting! Prefer it to analysing posts , but as a southpaw, NOT very good at it .

Paula needs some support on this thread. I am interested to hear her viewpoint, even though I don't agree with a great deal of what she says. But to say, as someone did earlier down, that she should keep her views to herself because she might upset some people who have had an abortion - FFS!!!

"I'm not arguing in favour of abortion actually, I'm arguing in favour of women being absolutely in control of their own bodies. Not a doctor, not a priest, not a politician, not a lover or a husband, but the woman herself".

Well, sadly, Caligula, women can never be absolutely in control of her own body. Her contraception can fail, she could be raped, she could carry a foetus with severe abnormalities. She can't realistically be expected to control those things and it is in these cases that the hardliners on abortion make their arguments.

Where she can take SOME control, is to choose to make sure she is protected, as far as she is able to. But, if women were prepared to take this on, all of the time, then the abortion rate wouldn't be steadily climbing when access to contraception and education about contraception has never been so good. The whole point of this thread is that the abortion rate wouldn't be so high, if this was the case. Sadly, too many women choose not to be in control of their own body and in doing so, expose themselves to having to go through a procedure that they cannot possibly want to have to go through - even if they would rather go through abortion than have a baby.

Of course you can never be in complete control of your own body - you can be subject to a horrible wasting illness like MS, you can be attacked, you can be injured, you can find yourself unable to conceive when you want to - but there's a difference between something outside a woman's control taking control of her, and something which is supposed to represent her - the state- taking control away from her.

Anyone who thinks the state ought to have more of a say over what happens to a woman's body than a woman, doesn't have much respect for women imo.

I agree with you that women still aren't prepared to take enough control over their own bodies btw. But it seems to me completely mad to suggest that the way to get women to have more control over their bodies, is by taking some of it away from them. Mental, in fact.

I wander what age groups have the highest percentage for abortion!!

20-24 years olds, runkid, IIRC from the stats given earlier in the thread.

MT you claim that a baby is not concious until it is born? Surely you felt your child react to music or your voice while in the womb. Kick back when you pushed at it. I could swear when my DD was born she knew the tune to Friends. Aren't these signs of conciousness?

expat, your post of 18.58 was uncharcteristically spiteful.

you're entitled to your opinion as always, greeny.

feel free to !.

Thanks expat havent had chance to read it all yet

I wonder if these pregnancys are conceived after boozy nights out when all sense seems to fly out the window

Conscious as in self aware - ie what we generally characterise as human and not simply animal

How do you know they aren't?

Actually it was not only spiteful but laughable. Expat spends her whole life on here and then describes others as having no life.

I haven't been able to post this weekend as have a lot of family visits going on but just want to add my support to smiley and co.

Science

The Roman Catholic Church in Portugal (and Ireland, I believe) allow abortion in cases of rape.

If a woman becomes pregnant within an abusive relationship and wanted to terminate the pregnancy abortion would not be allowed.

I don't understand the difference and herein lies my problem with the Pro-Life stance. By allowing abortion for rape the church acknowledges that the woman has rights over the fetus. Why don't the rights of women who choose abortion for reasons other than rape count?

'Actually it was not only spiteful but laughable. Expat spends her whole life on here and then describes others as having no life.'

Yes, that's true.

And a great point to add to this 'debate', which isn't really such anymore now that it's become yet another personal slanging match.

Oh expat, look back and you will see that you lowered the debate. But I am seriously NOT going to get involved with this side issue. The main one is much more important.

Bubble99 its just because with every other pregnancy has been conceived through concenual sex. I actually think you are wrong about that being the case down South though, I think they still need to go to England.

By making a reference to 'The Handmaid's Tale'? That lowered the tone?

It was a response to Aloha's post about a society in which women become involuntary carriers of babies for infertile couples.

Another member also mentioned that the same book came to her mind when she read that post, too.

You're right, though. Not worth the discussion anymore.

Not the Handmaid's Tale reference, nothing wrong with that (in fact several of us thought of it at the same time, it was quite glaring).

I was referring to your unpleasant comment to SmileysPeople about having no life and being a newbie. Just plain nasty, really.

Nobody knows when conciousness begins or ends. There isn't a scientist out there who understand why an adult is concious much less tell you when we become concious. Until you can say for certain that a baby in the womb is not concious you can't allow its life to be taken.

yes, two sides of the same coin, definitely .

I think Caligula touched upon issue of misogyny earlier and unfortunately it always seems to raise its ugly head in these discussions.

The bottom line is life is hard ? for some excruciatingly so. We live, to a great degree, in cloud cuckoo land in the ?west? ? but the issue of women bearing the responsibility and having to weigh up the costs and benefits of having a child is a big wake up call. Women have always had to deal with such terrible dilemmas ? and always will; but I repeat if medical technology can help alleviate the suffering to both mother and foetus in this inevitable dilemma then it is the only moral option. If you can?t get that then you haven?t thought about it enough.

Paula. How do you feel about abortion for women who've been raped?

Do you agree with abortion for a fetus/baby that has been conceived against the wishes of the woman?