Abortion rate highest ever - I'm sorry I just don't buy the reason suggested for this...

[CountessDracula]

"But pregnancy advice groups said the figures probably reflected poor access to contraceptive services"

What utter tosh

You can buy condoms in many loos in clubs and pubs. In any chemist or 24hour shop.

You have access to family planning clinics and doctors with free contraception

You can buy the morning after pill over the counter ffs

Shouldn't people take a bit more responsibility and get themselves to these places and get some bloody contraception?

Thanks lulumama

I keep swaering I will not return to this, but feel the posts stating paula should not express her opinion and that her opinion is invalid draw me back. When did Mn become a facist state?

Also so many inconsistencies not challenged in the argument it drives me mad....arrrhhhh.

I said it before and I'll say it again (but please read the post it's much quicker than all the repetition) human life.

So does a 14 week foetus fit the conscious and sentient criteria?

Smiley you put this very well.
I may not agree with Paula, but have found some of the arguments put towards her a bit...hm....odd comparisons.
And you are right, at one point we are meant to believe that an abortion is a soul destroying and hurtfull experience on the other hand apparently it isn't at all...and of course both are truthful, because different things will effect people differently!
I am with Caligula, of course, that I believe, that a womans choice is paramount, as if we loose that it's gonna open a big and ugly can of worms in so many other factors in a females life, devalueing women...
on the other end however, I do find late abortions something hard to "deal" with...!
Personally I really can't say I am 100% pro choice, but I am certainly more pro choice then pro life...if that makes sense at all. But that sort of doesn't really work neither here nor there.

From a very quick google, most structures in the brain are persent by the end of the first trimenster. There is considerable development of the brain through the 2nd and 3rd timester

I know it's alive - I meant about as alive as an animal that Paula asserts has no \right' to life

as i have said, i admire paula's tenacity

i think smiley, although you and i do not agree, you leave a little more room for manourvre and as this subject has too many shades of grey for an argument based on absolutes

Yes lulmama and the shades of grey areas tend to come in regard to those mid term type abortions. An area not really discussed in this debate, except by caligulas belief that womens rights are paramount over all other life.

Lots of people feel comfortable with pre 12 week abortions, most people feel uncomfortable with 24 week abortions, but start talking about 12/14 weeks and, as you say, there's shades of grey and it's a much harder debate in so many ways.

and fgs, if no one else is going to say it I'll say it again..MT we're talking about HUMANS!

definitely smileys....i think adding any more stigma or shame to abortion will lead to more women putting their heads in the sand, or not seeking help quickly, leading to more mid term abortion, the answer is complex, and starts with good sex ed, contraception ed, and talking about the emotional side of sex, which needs to be backed up by parents, and access to contraception and the MAP where necessary.
abortion should be a last resort, but i believe it to be a necessary resort, but not to say it should be available instead of contraception...

Well you may not like it Smiley but the issue does encompass life on a more general scale, especially in scientific discussions on the ethics of abortion. You can't have a full debate about this without getting into issues of specisism

LOL at my belief that "womens rights are paramount over all other life". Of course I don't believe that. I just believe that our rights have got to take precedence over that of a foetus. Because if they don't, then that has seriously appalling implications for our status in society. And for centuries, on and off, people believed that a foetus's value was equal to or greater than that of a woman, and that is part of the reason why women's status in every society on the planet has been so bloody low and it fed into the low status of women and kept it low - chicken and egg stylee.

And none of the anti-abortionists have wrestled with that argument. I don't like abortion either, but I dislike the subjugation of women far, far more. For me, it's a bit like those people who say they don't like the industrialised killing that is war, but are prepared to fight one against Hitler/ Saddam Hussein/ Pol Pot/ Stalin/ Insert terrible tyrant here. They say sometimes, however unpalatable, war is necessary. Well imo, the legal right to have an abortion on her own terms, is essential to the status of women, because it's about who controls her body - her, or someone else (usually a man). And I want her to, even if I don't like what she does with it. Anyone who thinks we can have real equality without the acknowledgement that we're adult to make our own decisions about our own bodies and the right to do that, is simply mistaken imo.

I am just so relieved that, unless England is taken over by a fundamentalist religious and misogynist sect, then Paula's views will remain utterly irrelevant to the real lives of women and to our law. I find her vision of a society where women are reduced to involuntary baby makers for infertile couples really chilling tbh.

Caligula, you are quite right my statement should have said 'womens right paramount over that of a foetus'. I hope that was implied if not specific.

You state 'you don't like abortion but dislike subjugation of women far more.'

I would claim I dislike the subjugation of women but dislike what I see as taking innocent life even more.

I would support war only when absolutely necessary and when the lesser of two evils, and would only suppoert abortion on the same principle, as I outlined yesterday in my post. As I consider abortion to be the taking of a life however the opposing 'evil' must be considerable and extreme along the lines of many of the examples given on this thread. ( and as I explained yesturday, look if you're interested anyone I'm tired of the circular debate.)

I know you however are not interested in the question of wheteher it is a life or not, for you the greatest evil would be the subjugation of women. Whilst I see this as an evil and would oppose it whenever and whereever i couls (and believe I do) for me there are a few, greater evils.

At some point soon..please lets's just agree to disagree.

MT. I have no idea any longer what your argument is. So a foetus above 12 weeks may be a conscious sentient being, but so's an animal....so??

'I find her vision of a society where women are reduced to involuntary baby makers for infertile couples really chilling tbh. '

And all those folks laughed at 'The Handmaid's Tale' being so far-fetched from reality.

Sorry, I meant you believe subjugation of women greatest evil, in the case of abortion. Not necessarily ever.

Again I'd hope that was implied, but am aware it would be picked up.

We are talking about women with freely avialable contraception having voluntary sex. Extremely far removed from the Handmaids tale.

Expat your posts seem to swing wildly about grasping at extreme nonsensical examples... and Paula was accused of illogical thinking.?

what aloha said.

So basically what the anti-abortionist view appears to be, is that the subjugation of women is regretable, but a price worth paying for the saving of human life.

Whereas I would like female human life to be considered as valuable as male human life and I really don't think it ever will be as long as the machinery of the state has a greater say in what we can do with our bodies, than we do ourselves.

And I notice that no-one has argued against that premise. (IE that without full control of our bodies, we'll never be equal.)

smiley, you do realise that people here often ignore one another?

because i certainly do.

in fact, i think an 'iggy' function on here would be great!

Ignore me then expat, but you seem to be finding it hard

I however will still feel free to point out your nonsensical statements when I see fit/can be bothered.

I've only read the start of this thread, so I don't know what's been happening in the middle. People say that there's loads of contraceptive advice out there. I don't know about that - when I was a teenager there was a Family Planning clinic on nearly every corner. When I needed something recently I had to travel to the other side of town. The GUM clinic had been moved out of town to the main hospital, and the AIDs campaign was in full swing. These days, despite having 2 children and being fairly used to trundling to appointments, the FP clinics are much less accessible. It's a sea change. I guess I was fortunate in having what turned out to be useful sex education at school.

I do feel strongly that young people should be told about sex and shown what contraceptives are available and how to get them. Women should be taught to understand that sex with someone you don't know that well is fraught with risk and that there is nothing wrong with carrying condoms. Condoms are no less essential now than they were 20 years ago. Abortion really should be the last ditch.

whatever keeps you busy and happy, smiley.

better than knitting, i guess, niggling random strangers, but if that's what gives you kicks, i'm flattered that someone has so little life they've got time to analyse my posts.

newbies. sigh.

Sorry, I've just written rubbish! I've got all my times in a muddle (must be my age...). I think it is harder now to get advice and help than it was, and a lot of the facilities have been centralised making them less easily available.

The thought of the return to back street abortions, coathangers and gin is too horrific. No woman should have to give birth to a child she absolutely does not want. women should have the last word.

Caligula I think we understand each other as much as we are ever going to.

As I said yesterday I respect the integrity of your argument whilst disagreeing with it.

Others on here have not argued with a convincing degree of logic (on both sides) and it drives me mad!!!

It will always be an emotive debate, but that should not prevent adult debate.(which makes sense)

Anyhow I'll take expats kind advice and now try to ignore this thread again (until I glance next and am frustrated by the facile level of arguemt).

If I do return feel free to shout at me WE KNOW WHAT YOU THINK PISS OFF.

But expat at least wait until I do return, don't be too keen

Well, I'm not sure I do understand you SP. Unless you accept the systematic subjugation of half of humanity as a morally correct position. If I'm reading you wrong, please do correct me, because I can't really believe that anyone on Mumsnet apart from Peacedove is in favour of that!