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Vitimin D, can it have this effect?

252 replies

SistersofPercy · 09/07/2015 13:23

We had a discussion over on AIBU last week about being pale and someone mentioned vitamin D if you don't get in the sun much. Now, I don't go out a great deal it has to be said and if I do I avoid sunlight.

I have Hypermobility and scoliosis so take 30/500 codeine, Diazepam and Nortryptilene daily for this. It's tended to leave me pretty lifeless as well as the painkillers affecting my bowels (TMI, apologies)

Anyway, just over a week ago I started to take vitamin D supplements. This week my bowels are as normal and regular as they were before the painkillers, my joints are a lot less clicky and I have double the energy. I've been in the garden all morning, pottering and moving plants around etc, something I've put off for the last 4 months because I didn't have the energy.

Whats going on here? Have I found something I was lacking with the Vit D or am I just having a good week lol

OP posts:
Bettertobehealthy · 10/07/2015 11:30

Its good to hear some encouraging stories about how higher levels of vitamin D help with so many symptoms. Those of you that are taking a short course , remember that you need vitamin D regularly , if you stop after 3 months say , then your blood level will more than likely just drop to its previous state . Unless you carry on with supplementation, or make a deliberate effort to go outside , in Sunshine , between 10 and 3 in the summer. In winter you will need to take other steps, either supplements , or sunbed. With sunbed, make sure that the light emitted contains UVB , and is not simply a cosmetic sunbed which has solely UVA light. Never , ever burn , in sunlight or under a sunbed. The recommendation is that you receive a half MED , that is Minimal Erythemal Dose two or three times a week , on at least 40% of your skin surface. A MED is that dose which would make your skin slightly red the following morning. So the recommended exposure is just half that, i.e. no apparent effect. There will of course be an effect, that will be , that you will make several thousand units of vitamin D in your skin. Depending upon your skin type and colour and sensitivity. Everybody is different.

The medical profession , is very slowly catching up with the latest knowledge about Vit D and its effects.   In the USA  they recently tripled the  RDA  to 600.  In Italy  the RDA is 1000 , in Norway , it is  800 IU.      These numbers are solely  those amounts predicated on bone health.   Higher levels are needed for all the other beneficial effects that Vit D brings.    

        The marker for your vitamin D status is  blood level of  25 hyrdoxy D3, that is the test you doctor does.   i.e.  it is the storage form , kept in your blood, until your body needs it. When required  your cells use that stored vitamin D  and converts it  to 1,25 dihydroxy D3, which is then used in your cells to read genes.    The storage form,  25 hydroxy ,  is not however the whole story.   When you make or ingest some Vit D , some diffuses throughout your whole body  and is used directly by cells , this native vitamin D has important effects as well.  native vitamin D has a half life in the body of about 24 hrs, the storage form  25 ( D3 )   has a half life of 1 or 2 months.   One of the most important effects of native vitamin D  is that it transfers in Milk, to your baby.    Storage form does not.  That is why, if you are  breast feeding you either must be taking large daily doses of vitamin D , or you should be giving baby drops, as per gov.  advice.    Luckily formula milk contains enough vit D for baby,  the recommended amount is  400IU  per litre.  Mothers milk in many many cases has just 25 IU  per litre.    That is not to say  one method  is best ,    just that  baby needs vit D , one way or another. Ideally  mothers milk should contain all nutrients.   To achive this  a daily dose of 6000 IU , given to  a b/f mother will deliver milk with 400 IU  per litre.  Look at the research of  Prof. Hollis  and Prof Wagner , over at the medical university of S. Carolina. 

      This is one of the best arguments for the levels that we are evolutionarily designed for.  Those mothers achived blood levels up in the hundred or so. Their milk became  normal, i.e.  that found in people living an ancestral lifestyle, outdoors, in a lot of sunshine etc.  Our levels  here in this country are lets say 30 -60  , commonly ,  depending upon your lifestyle.  Obviously some may have much higher levels. 

  That is why it is important to check your level, if you have symptoms , or suspect  even, that you are low.   Some doctors  will poo-poo it ,  and not give a test , others will.    However , you can get a private test , just by sending off to or calling the NHS  Vit D lab in Sandwell, West Midlands.  It costs £ 28  , and is  well worth it.   Here  is the website.  <a class="break-all" href="//www.vitamindtest.org.uk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.vitamindtest.org.uk</a>    .    It is a finger prick of blood onto blotting paper. Your result will be  e-mailed to you within a week. ! 

Bear in mind that they will class a result of  50 ,   as sufficient ,  which is not the case.  You need more than that  for maximum beneficial effect.  Many  medical bodies  worldwide now accept that at least 75  is required.  Most vitamin D researchers think that  100 to 150 , is the level to aim at.  Our natural evolutionary level was/is  120 -140.   That level is to be found in todays outdoor workers, lifeguards etc , and other people today living an "old fashioned" lifestyle , outside, farming etc.   Westerners tend to keep covered up,   we also live at a much higher latitude,  50+degrees  here in the UK.  That means much less UVB is present in sunlight.   All other primates evolved and still live at 33 degrees or less. We evolved there too.  

         Whew ,   

Hope that is of interest to some of you. !!

BTBH

Bettertobehealthy · 10/07/2015 18:45

Reply to previous poster

Bishops - It is interesting with regards to your fibromyalgia … and that you have found vit D alleviates the symptoms. You may find it interesting to know , that Prof Holick, Boston Medical centre , has found that about 50% of people diagnosed with fibro , do in fact have a Vitamin D deficiency , and their symptoms are caused by that. By treating the D deficiency the fibro goes away , or is much reduced.

If you are one of those 50% , which you may well be ,  my advice would be to make sure you get your Vit d level up.  The underlying problem, caused by Vit d deficiency,  may well be osteomalacia,  I stress may .   However  the symptoms are similar.  If you do have osteomalacia , i.e bone pain, muscle weakness, also try to ensure you get plenty of the other bone nutrients in your diet. That would be  calcium, magnesium, etc. Try and eat plenty of dark green leafy type veg,   It would also be advisable to ensure you eat sufficient protein ,  as bones are 50% protein by volume, to rebuild them you need to have at least  1.2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. You most probably hit that target  --   older people however  very often don’t. 

 Have you, in fact, had your vitamin D level checked.  That should be the very first thing you should think of !     Here is a lecture by  Prof Holick all about  Vit D.  At about 28 mins, he deals with fibromyalgia.    The whole lecture is important though. 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lRtx-4_FOY

Good luck

BTBH

Fabulassie · 10/07/2015 18:52

I started taking vitamin d a few years ago. I was about to undergo a chemo treatment and had read a study showing increased efficacy and fewer side effects. I already knew that living in the West of Scotland meant I could be deficient, so I tried it. I sailed through the treatment, which was successful, with few side effects.

So I generally take it. I take several times more than the rda.

This past winter I caught none of the flus going around even though I work with the public.

I told a friend this and she started a couple of months ago. She's a bit sickly but hasn't been poorly since she started.

I'm a big believer. It's cheap, easy and harmless.

Salmiak · 10/07/2015 18:56

bettertobehealthy at my ds 1 year health visitor check it was picked up that his head circumference was off the top of the centiles chart and he was referred to the paediatricians. They did some blood tests and he was found to have vit d deficiency as well as rather severe anaemia.

He's been on iron supplementation and ergocalciferol for 7 months now. He has more blood tests booked next week and is seeing the paeds at the same time.

Is there anything I need to get them to do specifically? He's otherwise a happy, healthy and active little chap.

Katymac · 10/07/2015 19:01

Dh is Jamaican & on Doxycycline so can't be outside without suncream - do you think it is worth testing him

I can't decide as I am supplementing him anyway

Bettertobehealthy · 12/07/2015 20:50

salmiak For any specific patient under the care of a doctor - listen to what they say. They know all the circumstances etc.

It is great that now something is being done about your ds deficiency ..... as that will be one of the best things that can benefit his overall health , from now on . Make sure he never gets deficent again. A blood test , in March /April yearly would be a good idea. If doctors refuse , then , if you can afford it , get a blood spot test from www.vitamindtest.org.uk.

     I wonder if there is any particular reason that your son is being  given    ergocalciferol( plant  form ) ,    and  not cholecalciferol ( mammalian form ) .      It might be worth asking that question of the paediatricians.    Most  Vit d researchers  would opt  for  cholecalciferol. Also  small daily doses , are better than equivalent  large weekly doses (or longer timeframes.) Possibly, a little bit of  modest sun exposure ,   may be beneficial , but  DEFINATELY   no burning. Having 5 - 10 mins  without suncream will enable vit d to be made in the skin.   Again ,   talk to your doctors. !   Also See my posts above re timing. Please  be very  careful with delicate skin!

Hope this is helpful.

BTBH

Bettertobehealthy · 12/07/2015 21:08

katymac In my opinion it is always worth testing your Vit D levels , people in general have very different responses to sunlight and supplements. Skin pigmentation is just one factor. That said , darkly pigmented skin has a 3 to 5 times greater need for sunlight , to make the same amount of Vit D , than say a white skin.

If you husband is being supplemented with 400 IU daily , ( a common tablet dose i.e. 10 microgram ) ) and he has been on that dose for about 3 months or more , then his blood level will have risen by about 10 nmol/l because of the supplementation. ( if his response is as an average person )

    As you probably know ,   darker skinned people are at greater risk , of deficiency  , in this country- UK,   because  sunlight is  so weak. ( See my other posts ).     In my opinion ,   for maximum Vit D health ,  his blood level should reach 100 nmol/l  or more.   He may require several thousand units per day  to reach that.      After about 3 months on any particular dose his level will approach equilibrium   from that dose.   

His blood level is likely to rise by 25 for every 1000 IU daily supplement.

Hope this helps

BTBH

Katymac · 12/07/2015 21:12

I've been giving him BetterYou Dlux 3000 Vitamin D Oral Spray - so hopefully he is OK

Bettertobehealthy · 12/07/2015 21:41

yongnian - here is a UK site concerning Vit D , www.vitamindassociation.org/ look around and you will see the various levels they recommend for different aged children. The US recs are generally better than the UK recs, in my opinion.

      The amount of vitamin D that a healthy body needs is dependant upon weight, it has been calculated, that the human body needs a daily input of about 70  IU  per day  per kilogram. That would be from all sources ,  sun , food  and supplements.      That is why it is  rather difficult to give a figure for everyone , it depends upon what they eat, what's their skin colour, whether thay are outside much, what time of year  etc etc.  

 In my opinion ,  it is the best , if at all possible ,  to have a blood spot test ,  about  March /April time .  See  what the blood level is ,    then figure out  how much  supplement you need ,   if any .   Nearly everyone in this country has low  levels.    In my opinion ,  blood levels should be  100 or  a bit more.   For example,     6 month old babies will reach this kind of level on the recommended doses because of their low weight. As we gain weight ,  more will be required.  Although  official recommendations  don't seem to follow that line of thought.        In the UK  for instance ,   the recommendation for  a 6 month baby   is almost the same as for say  Arnold Shwarzenegger. !   (300 IU baby    - 400 IU    Arnold )

A 75 kilo adult , will in general,  raise blood level  by  25 nmol/l  for every  1000  IU   daily supplementation.     Obviously ,   for smaller children much less will be required to raise blood level by 25 nmol/l  

BTBH

Bettertobehealthy · 12/07/2015 21:42

Sounds about right ...!

Bettertobehealthy · 12/07/2015 21:43

that last message to Katymac

Yddraigoldragon · 12/07/2015 21:45

I have been taking 10000 per day for five or six weeks following reading a similar thread.

My mood is better, my joints do not hurt as much and I feel pretty good. Have not had levels tested, worked on the premise that taking extra would do no harm, so far I am noticing a huge improvement.

Given that I think my levels have been low for ages, should I be supplementing with Calcium as well?

LavenderRain · 12/07/2015 21:51

bettertobehealthy
What an interesting topic, Thankyou for answering all the questions!

DD was found to be deficient a few years back, I can't remember her levels, she had them checked in a routine blood test, she had really achy legs. She took D3 and felt better but after the prescription finished she didn't take any more. She now suffers from anxiety quite badly so I'm wondering if D3 could help her again?

I am 49, suddenly I feel so old! My legs actually hurt, and everything aches, admittedly my diet isn't the best so I'm thinking supplements may help me too,

Is it possible to take too much?

TIA

Katymac · 12/07/2015 22:02

I take double that

I was wondering about Calcium too - but if I have absorption problems & a dairy intolerance I'm a bit scared about what Calcium to take

Rummikub · 12/07/2015 22:10

Interesting thread. It's just prompted me to take my vit d3. I get prescribed a high dose from my GP. I've been rubbish at taking it and my sleep is almost none existant.
Can you have too much vit d3?

Bettertobehealthy · 12/07/2015 22:17

Lavender - It is very difficult to take too much Vit D. Toxicity has never been shown at doses less than 30,000 IU per day.

Just to reassure you ,  the  Amercan Institute of Sciences,  Institute of Medicine  (IOM)    has set  10,000 IU  as  the  NOAL ( no adverse event Level . )   They have another level , called the  tolerable upper intake level   TUIL of 4000 IU per day,    which they say , an adult can take permanently every day with no risk.     These assume a healthy person .   

           As to your question about yourself and your daughter ,  if   both of you  have symptoms of  D  deficiency ,   which you appear to have,   why not get a test.       <a class="break-all" href="//www.vitamindtest.org.uk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.vitamindtest.org.uk</a>        or go to the doctors , and badger him.     See some of my earlier posts ,   you are looking for a blood level  of  100  plus ,     not   50 ,  which is what may be considered enough under the old paradigm.  

You are right , a good diet is highly recommended, to give you all those other nutrients that you may need. bear in mind , you cannot get enough Vit D from diet alone. Oily fish is one of the best sources , but you would need to consume wild caught fish every day to get enough.

Try to eat plenty of  dark green leafy type veg,  for calcium, folate  K1 ,    plus other types as well for other nutrients.  You need magnesium , that is a cofactor of  Vit  D ,   and many people are deficient in that.  That's why a good diet is pretty important.   Failing that , a good multi vit,  will go some way towards helping.  Make sure you are getting  minerals as well as  vitamins.    The level of  vitamin D , in  multi-vits  is too low  however. You will most likely need  a dose of several thousand IU  per day.  , to significantly raise your blood level. 

Hope this helps

BTBH

LavenderRain · 12/07/2015 22:32

Thanks BTBH Thats really useful. DD is anxious about taking pills so I will have a chat with her.

AlpacaMyBags · 12/07/2015 22:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Katymac · 12/07/2015 22:41

Alpaca - do you have IBS? I do & I've been told I have absorption issues - so I use a spray for D & B12 (as the injections aren't enough for me)

AlpacaMyBags · 12/07/2015 23:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bettertobehealthy · 12/07/2015 23:22

alpaca Hmmmmm-- It does sound like you have an absorbtion problem or another problem preventing you from using what you have absorbed. ( possibly a genetic problem )

From the point of view of Vit D , then you could possibly try another strategy. One possibility , the easiest , is to try a sublingual spray . Holland and Barrett have one. Choose the 3000 IU per puff. That might be most appropriate for you. At your level , perhaps 3 puffs per day. Then get your level tested in a month. It should have gone up considerably. If it has not , then try UVB treatment. This would most easily be done using a sunbed, be careful not to burn , but say 10 mins 2 or 3 times per week. It does depend upon the sunbed. Make sure you pick a sunbed type that has UVB in its output at the level of 2 -5 per cent . Some only have UVA , and that would not work. The higher the UVB output , the quicker your response, but the quicker you could burn. Again , get a test after a month , you should have had a response by then .

   If  none of this works, then  in my opinion ,  you should consult  your doctor again, and find out  exactly what is the problem.  I would hope you would be offered genetic testing,  as there are some polymorphisms which could explain this.      If you do have bowel symptoms,  Chrones ? then that might be  the cause.  He should find out what is going on, or send you to a specialist.  .     A level of 1 nmol/l  is just not acceptable for you. 

Good Luck

BTBH

ShootTheMoon · 13/07/2015 12:52

If it's not too rude, can I jump in with a query for BTBH please?

I'm 7 months pregnant with Dc2 and suffering from mild anaemia. I'm also hypermobile, exhausted, and looking a bit pale (underneath my tan as it were). I take a multivit and am taking Spatone for iron but on reading the above I think perhaps I should be taking vit D - I have had two winters of ongoing viral illnesses which have really left me run down. I'm also vegetarian.

I was previously taking this spray but on the advice above that's quite a low dose anyway. I'm currently using a magnesium spray.

BTBH, could you advise as much as you feel comfortable what sort of supplement level I might usefully take in pregnancy? And then when BFing (which I'll probably do for a year or two). And it sounds like perhaps I should give DC1 vit D, though perhaps more necessary in winter as she spends a lot of time outside at the moment.

I'm afraid my GPs haven't been very forthcoming with any testing for this - I have been back and forth ever since DC1 was born 4 years ago about exhaustion and fatigue and illness. I had one blood test and they just told me my levels were 'normal' and left it at that.

All of this is very interesting. My mum has had chronic fatigue/ME/fibro rumbling on for years now, and though she's better than she was, she's long suspected that it might be a problem with absorption. She's shocking at taking any form of supplement though - she buys them but only manages a few days - so I'd want to give her firm advice!

Bettertobehealthy · 13/07/2015 23:07

shoot If you have been reading my posts, you will see that I believe that we should all have blood level of vit d , that our early ancestors enjoyed. That means around. 120 - 140. From that level all sorts of good things will follow. For instance, in pregnancy, many complications will be reduce, including but not limited to, reduced pre-term birth, less pre-eclampsia, less necessity for cesarians section , reduced incidence of vaginitis, etc etc. All these effects and other's have been shown by the research of Hollis and Wagner at the medical University of S. Carolina.

The logical consequences of all that mean that we need to somehow either get more sunshine, or take supplements to achieve it. In reality it means we probably need to supplement , a few thousand units per day, depending upon your current level. That is for adults, children need less, because they weigh less.

Hollis and Wagner gave 4000 IU. daily to their pregnant mums, then 6000 IU , when breast feeding. Their mothers milk became replete in vit d, with all those associated benefits to mothers and children.

However, You are under the care of your own medical professionals, perhaps you could bring this up with them. They may be perfectly accommodating or encouraging, but you must discuss it with them.

 Perhaps with your mother, you could get her on spray,   3000 IU, per day, make sure she sticks to it. Again, a  blood test  before starting, then after several months, will give a good idea about the changes achieved. I would be surprised if she did not feel better after 6 months, assuming her blood levels rise significantly.  Assuming they are low right now. She may have other issues as well, however it must be a good thing to put right  any deficiency she may have with regards to vitamin d. It will help her own body fight other ongoing problems,if she has any. It is worth trying, costs very little, and is perfectly safe.

Hope this helps.
Look at some of my other posts for more information about vit d.

Good luck

BTBH

ShootTheMoon · 14/07/2015 12:18

Thank you BTBH, yes, I read your posts with interest, but struggled a little to keep up with some of the stats. Your last post was very clear and helpful, thank you!

I'm meeting with my GP next week anyway so will try to track down some of the research to discuss with them and ask for another blood test (which I need anyway because of my anaemia).

And I'll have a word with my mother to share your recommendations Smile

Thank you Smile

ihearttc · 14/07/2015 12:33

Can I jump in with a question as well?

I saw Rheumatologist last week (Ive got another thread on here about it) due to painful ankles and they have diagnosed with RA despite all my bloods being fine.

I questioned Vitamin D defiency because to me a lot of my symptoms point to that rather than anything else-Tiredness/Lethargy, brain fog, I ache all over, my joints are stiff and I have Insomnia. I also have Pernicious Aneamia if thats relevant and have B12 injections.The Consultant laughed at me when I asked if I could be tested for Vitamin D because Ive got a very slight tan from our holiday earlier in the year its apparently impossible. Incidentally we were on holiday it was incredibly hot (Middle East) and I felt better there than I have done the last 2 years...might be a coincidence. I saw my own GP yesterday and begged her to test me and she has agreed...got blood test booked this afternoon. Im very interested to see what the results are.