Vitimin D, can it have this effect?

[SistersofPercy]

We had a discussion over on AIBU last week about being pale and someone mentioned vitamin D if you don't get in the sun much. Now, I don't go out a great deal it has to be said and if I do I avoid sunlight.

I have Hypermobility and scoliosis so take 30/500 codeine, Diazepam and Nortryptilene daily for this. It's tended to leave me pretty lifeless as well as the painkillers affecting my bowels (TMI, apologies)

Anyway, just over a week ago I started to take vitamin D supplements. This week my bowels are as normal and regular as they were before the painkillers, my joints are a lot less clicky and I have double the energy. I've been in the garden all morning, pottering and moving plants around etc, something I've put off for the last 4 months because I didn't have the energy.

Whats going on here? Have I found something I was lacking with the Vit D or am I just having a good week lol

BTBH I love your posts!
I was watching Dr Chris on ITV This Morning yesterday.
He didn't recommend vit d supplements and said you could get enough vit D from the sun even on a cloudy day! fool

My vit D has come back as 66, and the letter says 50+ is ok. Should i still suppliment? Im overweight. Id actually hoped it would come back low so it would explain my me/cfs!

futureme Whilst that is not a terrible level , it is just above the bottom of the normal band, ( at least in my NHS area - where it is 50 -167 )
Bear in mind it is now near the end of the summer, and your storage form 25hydroxyD3, which was measured, will be roughly at its peak for the whole year. from now on it will drop until next April. ( probably halving ) You cannot make vit d in the skin from sunlight from mid Oct to mid April.

      Your current level (today)  is roughly half that your ancestors enjoyed for millions of years, their level was that which your body evolved to have.  So yes,  in my opinion , you should supplement , because it could very well help you,  it is safe, easy and cheap.   Look back over this thread ,  you will see where I talked about the autocrine system, wherby your cells take in Vit D from recently absorbed compound, ( native D3) either from the skin, diet or supplement. In winter there will be very little available to the autocrine system, if you rely soley on food,  which actually contains very little vitamin D.  By supplementing  daily,   you will have that nativeD3 , diffusing through your whole body, available to all your cells, for repair and other natural functions. 

    If you have a higher BMI,  then I would consider supplementing with 5000 IU per day ,   and measuring  again in 3-4 months. Hopefully you will be in the 120 -140 range and  you will begin to feel better.  Obviously, dont expect miracles , you must give it a chance to work , over many months, and you must try to make sure all your other nutrients are sufficient. i.e. do you take a multi-vit , good quality , with minerals ? Do you consume  plenty of a variety of veg , some fruit,  (   but not fruit to the exclusion of veg ! )  Try to make sure you get some dark greenstuff -  it contains cofactors for the utilisation of Vit D. It is very important to get Vit D daily, not weekly or longer. 

  Whilst nothing is guaranteed, you will be helping your own body to fight off that which is making you feel so bad. Lets <span class="line-through">hope</span> expect you will be back here in several months reporting some improvements. 

I wish you the very best of luck

BTBH

WitteryTwittery Yes, in the normal course of events , as a UK resident , assuming no known contra-indications, then from current knowledge about the state of your likely Vitamin D status , supplementation is definately advisable , both from your point of view , and from the expected benefits to your baby's health, now and throuought the baby's life.

Official government guidelines are to supplement , although not at the levels we are talking about here. Gov recs are 400 IU per day , found in supplements such as Pregnacare. ( which are advisable)

In the above circumstances, in addition to gov guidelines , I would be advising you supplement with additional Vit d , in order to raise your blood level to over 100. Which probably means about an extra 3000 IU or 4000 IU per day for you.

 You are under the care of your own medical professionals, please tell them , what you want to do, hopefully they will be encouraging.  Have a look at the work of Prof. Hollis   and Prof. Wagner concerning the benefits of such supplementation.  Look at the website of the  vitamindassociation.org,   particularly  pregnancy  and breastfeeding.

   If you follow the protocol of Hollis and Wagner ,   then your milk will be replete, and there would be no need to supplement baby.   ( if you are breastfeeding).     If you  do not follow the Hollis and Wagner protocol,   then please do follow guidleines about supplementing baby.  Preferably the U.S. Recs,   i.e. 400 IU  from a few days of age.  UK  recs  are 300 IU  from 6 months.   That 6 month gap  (for UK babies ) is a very detrimental ocurrence,in my opinion, particularly in a winter baby.  Please ensure that baby gets Vit  D, from birth,   one way or another, either  from your milk,from baby drops or from formula milk, whichever you opt for. 

  Hope this is helpful. best of luck

BTBH

PS. Many people get their supplements from Amazon, there are others, but do try to choose a reputable supplier. The costs should be reasonable though, 10 to 20 pounds for a whole years supply by tablet/capsule. Sprays tend to be more expensive, although easier to take. Daily supplementation is recommended, weekly or longer intervals is not advisable, as it may not be as beneficial.

.

BTBH your posts are amazing, thank you. Along with Sarcoidosis and granulanatosis, are you aware of another condition,
Primary Hyperparathyroidism which causes high levels of calcium. Low vitamin D occurs as a result of this condition, however supplementing only results in pushing up the calcium producing the symptoms you have described.

I'm convinced primary Hyperparathyroidism is much more common than is supposed and that many illnesses such as Fibromyalgia and TAAT are possibly PHPT. GPs simply don't seem to be aware of it and don't test for it.

It is normally usually completely cured by a relatively simple operation to remove one of the parathyroid glands.

And I would say to anyone with ME, CFS, Fibromyalgia, Osteoporosis etc. If you haven't done so already, Please push for your calcium to be tested and if above 2.57 then ask for pth to be tested too. If both are high then this is a biochemical diagnosis of Primary Hyperparathyroidism.

Hi there Best ,

       I do very much agree with you about testing ,   that is the best way of diagnosing , in conjunction with an experienced medical professional assessing your personal symptoms. We have to be so careful about so called "normal" results ,  which actually can be anything but ....

      From the Vit D point of view , a  " normal "  result in the typical range found in the UK,  is actually very much below optimum , in a great many cases, probably the majority. As I have tried to point out on numerous posts here in Mumsnet. 

In answer to your post, I am aware of hyperparathyroidism ( excess parathyroid hormone). But one problem is , it is not on the horizon of most professionals looking at a person presenting with various symptoms which may suggest it. You are right , that PHPT is much more common than traditionally thought. ( especially in post menopausal women).

  Some research in Minnesota,  has shown, in their population, they could expect up to about 0.8% of  post-menopausal women to be either clinically or sub-clinically affected. In the general population it is about 1/3 of that level.  

So yes, in an ideal world , testing for vitamin D , and calcium , would be an ideal thing to do. If you have any bone type problems then you should be able to make a good argument for the doctor to test both.

             If anyone suspects that they are hypercalcaemic,  ( have a look at the symptoms I posted on the previous page),  then IF  you can get a calcium blood test , then of course, it is a really good idea. I would hope, that if any of us have been diagnosed to be vitamin D deficient,  by an NHS consultant ,  they would have checked calcium levels , before prescribing Vit D.  If calcium was found to be normal , then most likely you do not have PHPT, since a raised level of calcium would normally be a consequence of PHPT. 

Secondary hyperparathyroidism is a consequence, in some cases, of Vitamin D deficiency. In this case a reduced level of calcium in the blood , causes the parathyroid hormone to rise, causing a higher percentage of calcium in our food to be extracted but also, crucially, in some cases, instructing the body to release calcium from the bones, thus normalising blood calcium. See one of my earlier posts for details. This response can result in osteoporosis, osteomalacia, bone pain etc etc.

   Just to clarify,  raised parathyroid hormone (  normal – but at the higher end of normal ) can be a symptom of low vitamin D. This mechanism , i.e. your body’s compensation for deficiency of Vit D ,  is an excellent way to estimate, at a population level or  in an individual where sufficiency is.  It turns out that when blood levels of vitamin D rise to about 80 nmol/l  then parathyroid hormone levels drops to the lower end of normal,  thus indicating that around 80nmol/l of vit D is the required optimum for calcium homeostasis.  ( assuming you do not have PHPT).     That is just one of the reasons many medical bodies worldwide recognise that  a level of  50  is just not sufficient. ( Unfortunately, up to now, in the UK,  that fact has not yet been fully accepted. )

Here I am talking about just calcium homeostasis (i.e. regulation of internal conditions), other bodily systems require even higher levels of vitamin d to work at optimal efficiency. For instance, lactation. ( see my earlier posts ).

You will see that vitamin D researchers recommend 100 – 150 as optimal. Modern humans , when exposed to a natural ( i.e. ancient ) environment have levels of 120 -140 , as do all other primates in their natural environment. We should all have those levels, for optimal health.

One thing that should be mentioned is that , 50% and more of our population have insufficient Vitamin D , and they should not avoid correcting that situation , by fear of a health problem which admittedly does affect a certain number of people, but , most likely not them.

Crikey …. I hope anyone reading through this thread does not get bored by all this. It is however very important. It seems to be more like a book, than a thread on a forum .

Hope this is helpful

BTBH

Can I jump aboard and ask your advice Btbh? You really are knowledgable and helpful, thank you, I've learnt so much reading the thread!
For as long as I remember I have felt, tired lots of time, brain foggy, irritable, anxious and at times a little low in mood.
I've bought 12.5ug of vit D. I understand that each of these equal 500iu is that right?. I'm overweight and from reading the thread I can deduct that 5000iu would be beneficial?.
I have my iron checked regularly as I have anaemia. I wonder if my vitamin D would be tested with a full blood count?.
Any advice?. Am I right in the 5000iu?, I'm fair skinned and live in the Uk.
Thank you again for all of your information.

Hi there voodoo,

glad to see that you are interested in this subject, as you can see from this thread, a suitable vitamin d level will be one of the best ways of promoting your own health.

Have you had your level measured? in my opinion , that is a good starting point. Try and raise that level up to 100 plus ( pref 120 -140 ) .

By taking 5000 IU per day , you most likely will get into that area , if you respond normally. ( Assuming your BMI is somewhat above average). The total vit d you need is about 70 IU per kilo of weight. That is from sun, food, supplement , and sunbed ( if you use it ).

You are right 12.5 ug ( microgram) is 500 IU . That would only raise your blood level a small amount , probably 10 - 12 nmol/l . That is why It is so important to know your starting level. Bear in mind , that now, (mid- Oct) you will probably be at your maximum , from the sunshine over the summer. The sun cannot make vit D in your skin from now until mid April ( here in the UK ).

   Supplement daily ,  not with long intervals between doses.  This will allow  native Vitamin D3  to bathe your cells, it will be there  when called upon to  enable your genes to be read whenever each individual cell needs it, in an autocrine manner.  This will enable you to fight ailments much more effectively. Allow your body time to respond.  Try and make sure you get a full complement of all the other nutrients,  as I am fond of saying ....veg  and fruit -  a good variety.(  greens being very important ) If you know that you are deficent in Iron , perhaps you are not consuming enough of the right type of veg  etc ,   OR  your digestive system may not be as effective in absorbing that or other nutrients, or for other reasons. 

Vit D was most likely not tested, with your other blood tests , unless it was specifically asked for.

Hope this is helpful, 

If you have any other questions just ask !

Let us know how you get on .

BTBH

Thank you so much for bumping this thread voodoo, it has made for fascinating reading.

I have just ordered some D3 for myself and the children as a result. Fingers crossed!

Brilliant Btbh, thank you. It's such an interesting subject. I'm due to have bloods redone in a month or two I believe. I'll request vitamin D levels then if possible.
No problems scone. I've read the whole thread and found it really helpful.

I'm not sure if it's been said on the thread but please dont use sunbeds

i say this as someone involved with skin cancer trials in the past, and as a scientist. Yes, a bit of sun exposure does you good (in general) but sunbeds are not the way to go unless recommend by your doc for a few very select conditions.

The skins capacity to synthesise vit d is saturated within about fifteen mins of exposure - regular short sun exposure is fine as long as you stick to the safe limits for your skin type, but please don't use sunbeds!

Here in Sweden vit d drops are given to all infants - it's recognised as a health issue here, which is good- we just don't get any light for months on end!

BTBH, would you mind advising me on how much Vitamin D I should be supplementing? I am 24 weeks pregnant and I have just had my vitamin D measured and it was 42. I had been taking pregnacare max at 400 IU but I obviously need more. I have been trying to up my dietary vitamin d but I have had very little sunlight throughout the summer due to being stuck in bed with hyperemesis. I would like to keep taking the pregnacare so how much additional vitamin d should I take to ensure I get up into the normal range? I have seen my gp about this but he has been very unhelpful and just advised eating more eggs!

JE678

No problem,

       It all depends upon what you want to do.

First let me say that food is a very poor source of vitamin D , oily fish (wild caught - but not farmed ) is the best source. Farmed fish e.g. salmon has only 1/4 the level of wild fish. Eggs , depending upon their source , contain approx 40 IU per egg. So 1 egg per day will raise your blood level of vitamin D by just 1 nmol/l. So that is not a sufficient source to do anything meaningful.

There are some foods that have been supplemented , but the levels are insignificant in relation to the amount you will likely require. Milk - here in the UK- contains none.

Throughout evolution your skin and sunlight upon it, has been the primary source of vitamin D.

To raise your level by 25 nmol/l  , you will , on average require 1000 IU per day.  Please take your supplement every day , not weekly,  for the most beneficial effect.  

  If your aim is to reach 100 + ,   then in order to do that , you will likely require an additional 3000  IU per day. ( in addition to the amount in  pregnacare ) .    If you have read this thread from the start ,  you will see where I explained that baby will be born with  60% -70%  of your blood level. Let your medical professional know what you are doing, he knows all your circumstances. 

When you talk about a "normal" range  are you meaning typical for here in England or the optimal.      A typical reading of say 60 - 80 would be found at the end of summer in a lot of people ,  probably almost halving over winter until next April.   Even if you get your level up to just 60 -80 and maintaining it there  you will be greatly enhancing  yours and baby's health. 

Please have a read of the vitamindassociation website, where they explain their position on supplementing mother and baby. See the work of Prof. Hollis, he has a talk on the front page off the website.

Please do ensure baby gets the recommended dose , either from your milk, baby drops , or formula milk. That would be of greatest importance.

You have found the obvious flaw in current vitamin D recommendations , which are 400 IU for a pregnant woman. That amount is not enough to raise many many people out of the current definition of insufficiency , i.e. they remain below 50.

Please have a good read over this whole thread,  and some of my other posts here on Mumsnet,  I have given an outline of the reasons for deficiency in many of us, action we can take to avoid it , and benefits of climbing out of deficiency. 

 Good luck with the baby  ! 

Hope this is helpful

BTBH

Hello all you knowledgeable vit d'ers could I ask some advice please?

I suffer from psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis. My arthritis has caused a flare up in my little toe - it's v swollen and painful.

I asked the dr for a vit d test as in the past it's been very low, I was told less than half the recommended level. The results have come back at 67.1 which the dr says is in the sufficient range.

I am hopefully in the process of being referred to dermatology for the psoraisis and will be asking for puva treatment as in the past this has cleared my psoriasis completely so will hopefully be getting a good dose of vit d from this treatment.

Would anyone advise me to supplement at this point bearing in mind that optimal levels are higher than 67? Or should I wait for the puva treatment that will surely raise my levels.

Thanks for any help

Anyone still out there?

Just reread this & bumping it to remind people how important it is

This is our standard autumn dose for kids and adults alike. The French use way higher doses.

Hi there wally ,

                            it is good to see that you are looking to remedy any lack of Vitamin D , that you or the kids may have. 

                           However , that dose of 200,000 IU   is quite large . Most Vit D researchers , nowadays, in the light of more recent research, would probably recommend a low dose , taken more frequently.

                           The blood level of  25HydroxyD3 , will spike high and then drop off initially quite rapidly, then more slowly over a month or two It does depend upon your sunshine , food  and other supplements or fortified food that you may get.   

                          It is considered better , if your blood level remains relatively constant ,  which would  be more achievable with  more regular doses, at lower levels.         Probably one of the worlds greatest experts on the enzymology of Vit D  is Prof. Reinhold Veith , Mount Sinai Hospital, Toronto.  His work shows the above. 

                 Vitamin D should not be considered a typical vitamin ,   it converts to a hormone , in your body as such should not be considered similar to say B12 , which is stored in the liver.  Your physiology requires a regular lower dose.      A human body can make about 20,000 IU  in one days exposure to strong sunlight.  You are adding 10 times that..!  

 A typical daily dose for a 75kg adult would be 3000 to 5000 IU ,  but a smaller dose for children, depending upon their weight, would be appropriate. 

     Some patients with specific health problems or deficiencies may take more ,  sometimes as loading doses.But in general ,  for healthy people, Vitamin D researchers are likely to recommend those mentioned above. 

 Hope this helps 

BTBH

I thought it important to bump this as its November & we have no sun!!

Thanks BTBH I have both but that is the standard French Autumn dose on prescription but you can pick up the drops from the pharmacy without prescription 3 drops a day. I'll look at what the dose is.

Joining ye. My vit d levels are at 15 and been put on 25000 weekly for 4 months then retest

Just ordered some vegan capsules, 1000iu. Been really avoiding addressing my deficiency after finding that various brands/formulations I've tried over the years had drawbacks of one sort or another for me. The megatron weekly lanolin doses that rheumatology prescribed a few years ago nearly killed me! And that put me off for a long time. I tried the solgar liquid version for a while but felt that it aggravated my dermatitis. Then I bought a tablet form from a pharmacy and that gave me reflux.

So not had great experiences trying to supplement D3 but I badly need to. UK based, osteoporosis, fibromyalgia, BPD (so am often depressed and at the mercy of rapid mood cycles).

Fingers crossed with this one. Will take 2000iu to begin and build up. Very sensitive system unfortunately.

Interesting experience so far. Started taking 2000iu on Monday, vegan cholecalciferol from lichen, in gel capsules containing olive and coconut oils. Have already noticed slight increase in energy levels and a sense of being more at ease generally today. I was out and about and realised that I felt more confident and less self-conscious than usual. I'm not taking any medication at present so there's nothing else to explain it. A very good result, unexpected at such a relatively low dose and especially considering my low vit D baseline. Improved mood and dream recall today. Would appreciate anyone's feedback about similar experiences on this supplement.

But this evening after dinner I got very anxious and really had to focus my way out of it for an hour or so. Felt uneasy and overwhelmed and there was no objective reason for that at all. It reminded me of the weird anxious racing thoughts and 'fizzy feelings' I've had with most anti-depressants I've ever tried, in the early doses. So I wonder if the vit D is behaving like a kind of natural AD?

Very sniffly the last couple of days. This may be because I've had a persistent sinus problem for months and the vit D might be loosening things. I'll be very glad if that is the case once it has run its course, but it's a bit of a drag in the meantime!

Vitamin D is so important, I'd ask for your bloods to be checked for a deficiency. I am deficient and started a loading prescription for high amounts as mine was extremely low , i feel so much better than I ever have done!