Some reasons why vaccination should be questioned.

[Spidermama]

This isn't meant to cause a flare up but rather to put wome points across which rarely get aired in the usual run of things....

1. Micro-organisms (bacteria, viruses, fungi, parasites) do NOT cause diseases. They aid the cleaning-up process of healing.

1. Most micro-organisms associated with seriuos illnesses live within healthy people without causing any symptoms at all.

1. All so-called infectious diseases are the result of a toxic condition within the organ of the whole body (i.e. dis-ease.) The symptoms relate to the elimination effort by the body to return back to health.

1. Susceptibility to disease depends solely on the state of health of the body, NOT on the exposure to micro-organisms.

1. Natural immunity is not disease-specific; one does not need to have come in touch with all diseases in order to gain immunity against them.

1. The presence of antibodies is NOT an indication of immunity. They are only a small part of the blood immune response.

1. No vaccine containing 'pure' micro-organisms elicits an immune response. Only when a toxin is added to the vaccine does the body respond to it.

1. An unvaccinated child is NOT an unprotected child; it still has its natural immunity. Besides, trying to protect from soemthing that is not the cause is inappropriate.

1. The Lancet (12 Jan 1980) reported that the BCG vaccine, against TB, showed no evidence of protection but rtahter an increase in cases of TB.

10. Government statistics shwo that death rates of ALL infectious diseases have drastically fallen BEFORE the introduction of specific vaccinations. (Smallpox deaths rose by approx 275% immediately after the smallpox vaccination was enforced.)

HOWEVER... if you believe that vaccination gives you protection against infectious diseases, then it should not matter to you whether somebody else has been vaccinated or not.

(Compiled by Patrick Quanten, MD. Independent Health Advisor.)

Most people think quackery is easy to spot but it is not.

What sells is not the quality of their products, but their ability to influence their audience. To those in pain, they promise relief. To the incurable, they offer hope. To the nutrition-conscious, they say, "Make sure you have enough." To a public worried about pollution, they say, "Buy natural." To one and all, they promise better health and a longer life. Modern quacks can reach people emotionally.

I don't see any vitriol from bundle either, I think she's being remarkably calm.

Just to return to point 1, if you take two cages full of lab mice, all genetically identical and in the same environment, and expose cage A to a given bacterium and cage B to a control solution, most if not all the mice in cage A will get an infection and maybe die, but none of the mice in cage B. Now please don't turn this into a debate about lab animals, my point is that these kind of experiments have been done over and over again with different pathogens over history and that's why we know that some bacteria and viruses cause disease. End of.

I certainly don't attribute god given skills to doctors, but they study 5 years of science, and base their clinical judgement on that.

ok nqc. but a lot of the 'alternative' stuff has been around for a lot longer than western medicine or scientific method.

acupuncture, ayurveda, chinese herbal medicine, and latterly homeopathy.

i think there is a neat parallel here between what we're talking about on this thread and on a meta level global industrialisation.

time was when peoples like native americans were seen as savages that knew nothing and needed to be 'educated' or destroyed. it seems to me that their way of living was a hell of a lot wiser and less destructive than the 'progress' we've made since.

and we're returning to that aren't we?

Sophable -
re thiomersal, I thought that perhaps mercury might be a bit of a worry in a vaccine.

I did NOT think that current understanding of immunology was therefore compromised. I certainly did not think that microorganisms did not therefore cause disease.

I love him too NQC
He is sceptical in a very good way

Oooh, bundle, Edzard Ernst looks good. It does sound like they're working their way through a lot of alternative stuff ...

Sorry sophable I think you are putting two and two together and making ten million.

Hmm, sophable, I don't agree wrt homeopathy (a bit of a parp subject for me, I'm afraid), but I'd agree the others are old, and may have worth.

But you know, humans have been doing stupid things for a very long time, just because something is old doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea. Trepanation anyone? (I would say "leeches", but actually they're used in medicine these days, aren't they? )

Cupping, too. That's an old favourite.

And I would be interested in your homeopath proving that my dd or I have been damaged by the vaccines we have received.

As scientists might say, where's the evidence?

I would say "leeches", but actually they're used in medicine these days, aren't they?

Yes they are.

So are maggots as they are good for cleaning out wounds.

trepanation worked though didn't it? sorry that's not part of my argument but i find it fascinating that someone could have a bad enough headache for a long enough time to drill a hole in their head in order to relieve the pressure.

does your dd have trouble breathing through her nose? or did she when she was little.

apparently it is often the case with vaxed kids.

of course i can't offer you 'proof' on your terms, who on earth would spend money researching something that potentially loses big pharma so much money??

also my homeopath does not suggest that vaccines don't work (in a limited way) but that there is a cost attached to having them.

Hmm, I think the hole in the head just hurt more than the headache, surely?

"Worked" is a relative term, anyway - lobotomies "worked", too .

Ernst articles on complementary medicines, in Pharmaceutical Journal and everything you need to know about Ben Goldacre, aka Mr Bad Science

Cupping is still done in the alternative health community isn't it? (And trepanation is supported, anyway ... Dahmer did it as well, in some form, according to the slightly coy wikipedia page on the subject ...)

Trepanation performed by non-medical or non-trained individuals is dangerous. Those who perform it claim that it has beneficial effects on brain circulation, pulse rate, that it increases your attention span etc. In fact NONE of these claims has any scientific ground. All evidence suggests that trepanation has no beneficial effect on health.

no no....trepanning causes states of euphoria!!

this is a total tangent btw, i'm not advocating trepanning, just find it fascinating!

god, i go away for 2 minutes to find some links and I come back to trepanning???

my children have no problems with breathing through their noses. they have had vaccines, plenty of them. sample size: 2, completely conclusive

Leaches are used to treat bad brusing, since the leech sucks out the blood from under the skin, while helpfully inecting the person with an natural anti co-agulant....clever stuff. Stupid stuff would be using them to treat, say epilelpsy.

Just cos it is old doesn't mean that it is good.

In India it was often a traditional practice to ppack the vagina of a recently delivered woman with cow dung to purify her and prevent post aprtum illnesses. Unknown to the people doing this, this is the easiest way of giving the woman Tetanis, sort of jabbing her with a needle full of the bacteria (and anti vac people be aware the anti tetanis is the toxid, not the bacteria). Not a nice thought is it?

Science is not perfect and should always be questioned. But so should everthing else.

Yes my dd can breath through her nose. So can I.
Are you surprised?

'time was when peoples like native americans were seen as savages that knew nothing and needed to be 'educated' or destroyed. it seems to me that their way of living was a hell of a lot wiser and less destructive than the 'progress' we've made since. '

But they were no less suseptible to pandemic diseases than any other human population.

My grandmother was a native American, as were her husband and daughter.

They all contracted Spanish Flu and her husband and daughter died.

Her 21-year-old, fit, bricklayer husband who was the picture of health - who never smoked, drank alcohol, was breastfed till he was 2 and ate a healthy diet - was dead w/i days of the virulent pneumonia that seemed to go hand in hand w/that strain of flu.

What made her survive and those two die no one can really say.

But if there were a vaccine that could have saved her husband and daughter I've no doubt she'd have gone for it.

no of course not. i never suggested that all vaccinated children were damaged.

i'm sure you both enjoy absolute peak health.

"who on earth would spend money researching something that potentially loses big pharma so much money?? "

I've never understood that argument - most of the scientists I know are pretty independent thinkers and there is plenty of research money around that does NOT originate from big pharma.

we got syphilis from latin america, apparently. i'm reading a lovely book on it at the moment.