Some reasons why vaccination should be questioned.

[Spidermama]

This isn't meant to cause a flare up but rather to put wome points across which rarely get aired in the usual run of things....

1. Micro-organisms (bacteria, viruses, fungi, parasites) do NOT cause diseases. They aid the cleaning-up process of healing.

1. Most micro-organisms associated with seriuos illnesses live within healthy people without causing any symptoms at all.

1. All so-called infectious diseases are the result of a toxic condition within the organ of the whole body (i.e. dis-ease.) The symptoms relate to the elimination effort by the body to return back to health.

1. Susceptibility to disease depends solely on the state of health of the body, NOT on the exposure to micro-organisms.

1. Natural immunity is not disease-specific; one does not need to have come in touch with all diseases in order to gain immunity against them.

1. The presence of antibodies is NOT an indication of immunity. They are only a small part of the blood immune response.

1. No vaccine containing 'pure' micro-organisms elicits an immune response. Only when a toxin is added to the vaccine does the body respond to it.

1. An unvaccinated child is NOT an unprotected child; it still has its natural immunity. Besides, trying to protect from soemthing that is not the cause is inappropriate.

1. The Lancet (12 Jan 1980) reported that the BCG vaccine, against TB, showed no evidence of protection but rtahter an increase in cases of TB.

10. Government statistics shwo that death rates of ALL infectious diseases have drastically fallen BEFORE the introduction of specific vaccinations. (Smallpox deaths rose by approx 275% immediately after the smallpox vaccination was enforced.)

HOWEVER... if you believe that vaccination gives you protection against infectious diseases, then it should not matter to you whether somebody else has been vaccinated or not.

(Compiled by Patrick Quanten, MD. Independent Health Advisor.)

Oh the doctors! Bluejelly I'd quite forgotton that the doctors are actually deities who are always right about absolutely everything. I will try to remember that before I ever question anyone from the medical establishment again. I am clearly not worthy.

I'd better leave this thread now and go to take out some of my furstrations on the poor unsuspecting pumpkin on the kitchen table.

Many doctors are good people devoted to their jobs and want to help people get better.

More so than not, I've found.

Sure, there are some bad apples in every bunch.

this is the virus that causes HIV.
Never found my arse.

Doctors and health professionals aren't perfect spidermama, but the fact that our children have a good chance of surviving to adulthood is surely partly down to them?

Now don't forget to vaccinate your pumpkin before you hack him up

Oh dear ... Bundle I made it quite clear I mentioned the thrush thing because you made a hysterical, one-off random comment about meningitis.

Not reading any more. No good for stress levels. That pumkin is gonna get it.

It's one of the most studied viruses in history.

HIV is a retrovirus. A retrovirus is any virus belonging to the viral family Retroviridae. They are enveloped viruses possessing an RNA genome, and replicate via a DNA intermediate. Retroviruses rely on the enzyme reverse transcriptase to perform the reverse transcription of its genome from RNA into DNA, which can then be integrated into the host's genome with an integrase enzyme.

Clever things viruses.

I don't pretend to understand it either but HIV is a retrovirus.

"Hysterical"?

Thanks bibliophile.
Was about to google for it but you saved me the trouble

Some are proviruses, IIRC.

They die because the HIV virus has distroyed their immune system. It is true that they may well die iof another disease, but they wouldn't have got that disease unless the HIV had fucked their immune system.

Rather like no-one dies of leukemia. They die of a disease that their immune system cannot cure. But the leukemia 'did for them'

It is utter nonesense to sugest that bacteri and virusus do not cause disease.

Or are you sucesting that we all carry all disease all the time, and our immune system just fightes them off.

OK a bit of history.

In london in te late 19thC there were outbreakes of cholera. A doctor called Snow, plotted them and found that they were all centred round a particular water pump. people who lived in the same area, ate the same food, lived in the same poverty, but drank beer from the local brewery didn't get the disease.

So what your theory says is this. At a particular time, lots and lots of people got run down and all developed cholera at the same time. For some reason drinking beer made you immune to the illness, because drinking beer improved your immune system.

My theory goes, there was a bacteria in the water at a set time. people who drank the water, may or may not have developed the illness. Partly this was decided by their state of general wellness. Partly it was luck. people who didn't drink the water didn't get the illness, even thought their lives were just as crappy as the people living round them/

Oh and one well to do woman got it living miles away from the area, the reason, she got the water delivered from the pump to her home, cos the liked the taste!

Snow was right. broke the pump, and the levels of choera fell.

Or are you saying that breaking the pump cayuse all these people to have improved immune systems.

Occams razor supports Snow and I'll go with them both! smile]

that's one version expat.

another might be 'doctors are people drawn to a 'life and death' profession and the omnipotence and authority which accompany the job often due to early issues with authority figures in their lives.'

neither are totally true.

but the authority thing is a big one with doctors. imo.

I'm not disputing doctors do great stuiff. They keep my diabetic son alive for a start. But they are not gods and bluejelly you overstate their importance. Honestly you sound like you think Doctors are not mere mortals like the rest of us but have god given powers which are not for plebs like us to question. Bollocks. Dangerousl bollocks.

We used to think priests had a direct line to God. Now we've transferred this bind faith to doctors.

Now I must just press post and NOT read any more lest I should neglect my pumpkin duties.

mb you are a lot more patient than I am.
[respect]

spidermama, there's no one less hysterical than my editor, whose baby daughter had meningitis 15 years ago and owes her life to ABs. And why would you visit a GP if you don't trust what they do/say, for thrush or anything?

yes I agree that people don't die from HIV/AIDS BUT that is NOT the same thing as saying that HIV/AIDS the disease/condition is not caused by a virus.

mb. i don't think you are at such odds with spider.

fwiw, i believe that virus is the pathogen but that it is the overall state of the host (us!) that determines the virulence and severity of the illness.

is that ok?

so focussing on the pathogen seems like a case of shutting the door after the horse has bolted....focussing on the optimum health of human beings rather than zapping them with antibiotics (that chicken is coming home to roost isn't it? something that should be an absolute last resort, emergency, lifesaving when all else fails measure has been abused and is no longer working) or cutting out the cancer?

Jesus bundle get of the ABs thing. I never once said there was no place for ABs. What is it with you?

but surely the pumpkin never hurt anyone, surely it's just a fruit which aids the cleaning-up process of healing.

In some cases the state of the host makes a difference. In others (rabies, hantavirii) it doesn't make much difference at all. If any.

Patrick Quanten is what's with me.

Spidermama, you are concentrating on the TONE of the posts, but you are not answering the CONTENT of them. You said that the only recent polio cases were caused by the live vaccine. That is not correct. You said that the HIV had not been identified. It has. You have raised other examples which others have answered. I do understand that you have significant concerns about mass vaccination programmes, and having read threads on here I understand where people are coming from on this, but to base your arguments on this list is a mistake. Why do you feel that this man is so authoritative?

SM I don't think doctors are gods. But they are life savers, okay?

And no, GPs aren't gods. But science is pretty reliable stuff. And the stuff you're talking about, spidermama, isn't science. Obviously. It is scary quackery.

And yes, I think questioning vaccines is a good idea. Heck, question everything! But don't throw away science and replace it with ear candles, fgs.

bundle why does this make you soo angry and vicious as a result? if spider is just a crackpot why on earth should it bother you enough to be so vitriolic?