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Declining 8 week vaccinations for my baby - experiences?

999 replies

Plasticpineapple · 24/07/2014 17:32

I don't want this to be about whether you should or shouldn't vaccinate your baby. I have chosen not to and I'm looking for experiences from others who have done the same. What did you say? What did the doctor say? Did you discuss vaccination once the child was older or flat out decline all vaccines?

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 12/03/2015 20:10

Right Hak, because you would never fling unsupported accusations about would you? Wink

Hakluyt · 12/03/2015 20:11

fascicle- as you're back, please would you address this post of mine? Thank you.

""Those are the words of another poster, so no, I can't explain it on her behalf, although I'm surprised you take exception to it. I said your quote was provocative."

  1. You agreed with her.
  2. Why would I not take exception to being accused of breathtaking cruelty?
  3. Why was my post provocative?"
Hakluyt · 12/03/2015 20:13

"Right Hak, because you would never fling unsupported accusations about would you? wink"

No. I base any comment I make about anyone on what they have said. Or refused to say.

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2015 20:18

Of course you do :)

Spamminit · 12/03/2015 20:25

Haven't read the full thread because quite frankly your ignorant attitudes to vaccination test my patience.

I too looked into the negative side of vaccinations, CONSIDERED declining, CONSIDERED getting the MMR administrated separately in a private clinic, CONSIDERED the risk of autism etc etc.

Then I done my research and realised that the largest numbers of children reported to have shown signs of autism after the MMR were those that received the vaccine in the few years up to 1991. In 1991 Thimerosol (sp?) was removed from the vaccine, which is a mercury based preservative if my memory serves me correctly. Myself and my brother had the vaccine in these years, me in 1990 and him in 1991, I am fine and he has aspergers syndrome. The chemical imbalance has to already be there for the MMR to contribute. And the only vaccine that still has that preservative in now is the flu jab.

Anyway I digress, my point is, I chose to vaccinate my child because if god forbid, they became ill with one of the illnesses that the vaccines protect from then it would be my fault. Can you live with that on your conscience if it were to happen to you/them? (I pray they don't get ill but you see my point)

fascicle · 12/03/2015 20:27

Hakluyt Revisit the post in question and its context.

No. I base any comment I make about anyone on what they have said. Or refused to say.

That is just not true.

Hakluyt · 12/03/2015 20:40

Here is the post. You revisit it and explain it's "breathtaking cruelty" and provocative nature.

"Human beings search for patterns. That's what we do. There isn't a parent of a child with a disability who doesn't hunt for explanations, for reasons. Hence the "never been the same since..[some significant event]" It's in fairy stories, mythology......In my family, a child was born in the 1890s with some unspecified disability "because his mother was frightened by a black cat when she was carrying him" (bizarre but true). MMR is a significant event-and the timing matches."

bruffin · 12/03/2015 20:40

the research is by goodman and nordin.

spammit

thimersal was never in mnr, so how can it have been removed in 1991

bruffin · 12/03/2015 20:52

what tetanus does to unvaccinated children

Alyosha · 12/03/2015 21:09

Not evading it at all. I've answered it. You're just doing this thing again where you don't like my answer so you accuse me of not answering.

"I'm not against it" is not a stance - on anything.

Earlier you said that the HPV vaccine was testing for pre-cancerous cell changes. Are you finally admitting that statement was incorrect? Or can you actually see the difference between testing for a virus and testing for cell changes?

No, HPV testing is testing for pre cancerous cell changes. It is more effective at doing that than a smear is!

If we finally find the definitive evidence that some biomarkers are associated with autism, will you say "oh it's not a test for autism, it's just a test for /biomarkers/"?

Are the CDC wrong to say that a test for Pneumocystis jirovecii is essentially a test for HIV in someone not otherwise immunologically compromised? Is there such a thing as an Aids defining illness (or are you an Aids denialist as well as being anti-vax?).

Can't remember - might have just been giving information and it may have been this thread or another. I'm not sure what you consider 'anti-vac' tbh so I may have corrected a few on various things at one time or another. They do tend to have more accurate information about disease incidence and risk though than those you would consider 'pro-vac'.

OK, so that's a "no". Why do you feel the need to come onto threads where OP asks about getting a vaccine for their child i.e. chicken pox and advise against it, event though you don't know their ~individual risk~ (which is apparently why you can't advise OP to get her kid vaccinated...)?

No- it's not smile it's answering a question and I've clearly stated 'in susceptible individuals. Do you have a problem with your keyboard? You can't ever seem to type those extra three words.

Those susceptible individuals no one knows how to identify and have already been proven not to exist?

Why would I admit to bring something I'm not?

Everyone here thinks you're anti-vax, Bumbley - you're not fooling anyone. Just admit it and then you can spend less time ardently insisting that you're not anti-vax and more time making misleading comments about vaccines.

I say plenty just not the things you accuse me off saying. More examples of those statements that you make and can't actually back up - misleading yes?

Well you insinuated all of things, as well as saying that pretty much all the childhood diseases we vaccinate against now are either mild or so rare it's not worth the bother. Is that not what you think?

Where did I say measles was harmless? Didn't say it never causes harm in healthy kids. You still haven't produced those mumps/rubella figures. Are you disagreeing with the official sources that state that mumps and rubella are usually mild in childhood?

Great, so you unequivocally agree with vaccinating against Measles? At least we've got somewhere....

No Bumbley, I'm not disagreeing. The key word in your sentence is "usually". Are you denying that children have died of mumps/rubella and been disabled by them?

Alyosha · 12/03/2015 21:12

LaVolcan - I'm sure that made you feel very superior although not entirely sure how relevant it was.

As you say you are not anti-vax, would you like to outline the reasons you gave your children all of their vaccines?

BM - "crap" = your incredible ability to avoid questions you don't want to answer.

Reminds me of this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2015 21:21

Aly - what part of the HPV test do you think is testing for pre-cancerous cell changes? Walk me through your thoughts on it because I really don't understand how you're not getting this. You know that HPV isn't pre-cancerous cells itself right?

I don't advise people for or against things. I've already said I understand certain situations where it makes sense to vaccinate against CP.

How can you prove they don't exist if you can't identify them? Grin

I've already said you can call me anti-vax if you like. It doesn't mean it's true. Your 'misleading information' was stuff you made up not actually stuff I said. You haven't pointed out what information I have given that's inaccurate and you haven't been able to back up your own statements so you're hardly in the position to throw stones.

The ones I said were mild are listed on medical websites as 'mild' too so it's not just me saying that. Rare wrt tetanus? It was rare pre-vaccination. More than 'vanishingly' so by your definition.

Are you going to produce those figures? Struggling to find them?

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2015 21:22

"would you like to outline the reasons you gave your children all of their vaccines?"

Why on earth do you ask people questions like this? It's so strange.

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2015 21:23

"BM - "crap" = your incredible ability to avoid questions you don't want to answer. "

You've evaded quite a few yourself Aly Grin

LaVolcan · 12/03/2015 21:23

I would imagine for the same reason that you gave your children vaccines Alyosha?

Alyosha · 12/03/2015 21:34

Ok Bumbley.

Smear tests are sometimes look clear, but aren't. Testing those cells for HPV is proven to show that those seemingly innocent smears do in fact have cell changes. How do we know this? Well women with high-risk HPV strains and clear smears, are more likely to go on to develop cervical cancer than women who don't have HPV but do have cell changes on their smear tests.

So HPV testing is used to suss out the existence of dangerous cell changes.

Hence it is a test for cell changes.

Read this whole paragraph

*"On April 24, 2014, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved the use of one HPV DNA test (cobas HPV test, Roche Molecular Systems, Inc.) as a first-line primary screening test for use alone for women age 25 and older. This test detects each of HPV types 16 and 18 and gives pooled results for 12 additional high-risk HPV types.

The new approval was based on long-term findings from the ATHENA trial, a clinical trial that included more than 47,000 women. The results showed that the HPV test used in the study performed better than the Pap test at identifying women at risk of developing severe cervical cell abnormalities.

The greater assurance against future cervical cancer risk with HPV testing has also been demonstrated by a cohort study of more than a million women, which found that, after 3 years, women who tested negative on the HPV test had an extremely low risk of developing cervical cancer—about half the already low risk of women who tested negative on the Pap test.

First-line HPV testing has not yet been incorporated into the current professional cervical cancer screening guidelines. Professional societies are developing interim guidance documents, and some medical practices might incorporate primary HPV screening."*

As you can see, HPV testing is being used as a test for cervical cell changes.

Not sure why this is so very difficult for you to understand: If we finally find the definitive evidence that some biomarkers are associated with autism, will you say "oh it's not a test for autism, it's just a test for /biomarkers/"?

Are the CDC wrong to say that a test for Pneumocystis jirovecii is essentially a test for HIV in someone not otherwise immunologically compromised? Is there such a thing as an Aids defining illness (or are you an Aids denialist as well as being anti-vax?).

I'm not trying to identify them - you brought them up, you believe they exist, you have absolutely no proof of it at all. So count this as evidence for your misleading statements you claim you don't make.

So you don't think that Measles, Mumps etc. are totally harmless, you don't think vaccines trigger autism, and you don't think that vaccine damage is actually more dangerous than wild disease?

So you're saying that no child has ever died or been disabled by Mumps, Measles, Rubella? Finding it difficult to answer, Bumbley?

I am under no obligation to find you figures you first asked for. If you want to find them go ahead. You are the one claiming that they never ever have negative side effects and there's no point vaccinating against them. You can dig out the evidence that those illnesses are completely trivial and not worth bothering with.

You most definitely do advise people against vaccinating. Perhaps you should read your old posts to get up to speed.

I thought LaVolcan could add some balance to the conversation, considering she is apparently not anti-vaccination. It would be nice to see her say something positive about vaccines for once.

Alyosha · 12/03/2015 21:37

Go on Bumbley, throw some questions at me that I've evaded, I promise I'll answer them :D

And what do you imagine those reasons might be LaV (Just to avoid misleading anyone I don't have children yet - will do soon though + I like a female dominated conversation site with an older population).

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2015 22:15

Aly, it isn't a test for cell changes. It's a test for certain strains of HPV. The pap smear tests for cell changes. Nothing in your quote says that it is a test for cell changes. "This test detects each of HPV types 16 and 18 and gives pooled results for 12 additional high-risk HPV types." - it is testing for types of HPV.

Do you know what is actually involved in 'testing for cell changes'? I'm still wondering if you think HPV is actually pre-cancerous cells or something here because I really can't understand why you don't get this.

There is proof of children who are more susceptible to developing autism. we've been through this.

"you don't think that vaccine damage is actually more dangerous than wild disease"

Depends on the disease.

Still waiting for those figures Aly.You tried to look them up and didn't find what you wanted didn't you? :)

"You are the one claiming that they never ever have negative side effects and there's no point vaccinating against them."

Haven't said that. More misleading statements from you.

Unanswered questions - fatality rate for mumps and rubella please. Thanks :)

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2015 22:25

Aly - from the CDC

"The Pap Test

Checks your cervix for abnormal cells that could turn into cervical cancer.

The HPV Test

Checks your cervix for the virus (HPV) that can cause abnormal cells and lead to cervical cancer."

Alyosha · 12/03/2015 22:29

Did you read further "The new approval was based on long-term findings from the ATHENA trial, a clinical trial that included more than 47,000 women. The results showed that the HPV test used in the study performed better than the Pap test at identifying women at risk of developing severe cervical cell abnormalities."?

It is being used as first line test to detect women at risk of developing severe cervical cell abnormalities. How is that not using it as a test for...severe cervical cell abnormalities? boggles

If you accept HPV is better at identifying pre-cancer than smears are then not sure why you are finding it so difficult to understand.

Do you think a test one thing is only every test for that one thing?
If we finally find the definitive evidence that some biomarkers are associated with autism, will you say "oh it's not a test for autism, it's just a test for /biomarkers/"?

Are the CDC wrong to say that a test for Pneumocystis jirovecii is essentially a test for HIV in someone not otherwise immunologically compromised? Is there such a thing as an Aids defining illness (or are you an Aids denialist as well as being anti-vax?).

No there isn't Bumbley, the studies were looking at children who were going to develop autism, to try and start early intervention and ameliorate the effects of the disorder.

Go on then, give us the Bumbley list of approved vaccines.

What, so you don't think that Mumps & Rubella have ever caused disability or death in children?

I know Mumps and Rubella is usually mild (in fact I never questioned you on this).

For Mumps as I suspected, it can sometimes prove fatal: about 1 in 10,000 risk. And according to you, warning about a 1 in 10,000 risk is definitely not scaremongering.

www.who.int/immunization/monitoring_surveillance/burden/vpd/surveillance_type/passive/mumps_standards/en/

Rubella deaths are definitely rarer, but as has been mentioned the main risk is to the unborn.

However, people do still die of Rubella occasionally and it is within your golden "not scare mongering 1 in 10,000" magic figure: www.ncirs.edu.au/immunisation/education/mmr-decision/rubella.php

Do you disagree, and think that no one has ever died of Mumps/Rubella? Is 1 in 10,000 now scare mongering?

Alyosha · 12/03/2015 22:31

Yes, I know the HPV test is a test for HPV Bumbley. It can also be used as a test for the presence of pre cancerous cells on your cervix.

In fact it is a more accurate test for the presence of these cells than smears.

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2015 22:41

Yes Aly, I read that. That does not say that the HPV test is checking for pre-cancerous cells or anything like it.

You don't know how these tests actually work do you?

"It can also be used as a test for the presence of pre cancerous cells on your cervix."

No Aly, no it can't. It does not look for pre-cancerous cells. You are confusing it with a pap smear. A pap smear looks for pre-cancerous cells. The HPV test only looks for certain strains of HPV.

Genetically susceptible children. They do exist - there is proof of them.

"For Mumps as I suspected, it can sometimes prove fatal: about 1 in 10,000 risk."

Nope. Risk of death from mumps encephalitis is 1 in 10,000. Risk of contracting mumps encephalitis ranges from 1/250 to 1 in 5000 cases according to the encephalitis society that San linked to earlier. We had this conversation waaaaayy up thread and I pointed it out to you.

Rate of rubella encephalitis from your link - 1 in 6,000. Risk of dying from rubella?

Alyosha · 12/03/2015 22:54

No Bumbley, the Pap smear has been proven to be worse at finding pre cancerous cells than the HPV test. The HPV test is being used as a first line test for the presence of pre cancerous cells. Do you think all positive smear results are pre cancer, Bumbley?

Fancy answering my other questions?

Perhaps I misread the WHO link. Going to bed now; will reply in full tmw.

Alyosha · 12/03/2015 22:56

If you accept the evidence that HPV testing alone is more accurate than Paps at detecting pre cancer, what's the issue?

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2015 23:04

"the Pap smear has been proven to be worse at finding pre cancerous cells than the HPV test"

The HPV test does not test for pre-cancerous cells. How many websites will you have to read before you can understand that? Do you know how the tests actually work? I'm not sure you do. You just keep going on about identifying women at risk and which one is being used first and that has nothing to do with what I am trying to point out to you. Honestly, my 9 year old could understand the difference between the tests - it is not difficult.