Declining 8 week vaccinations for my baby - experiences?

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I don't want this to be about whether you should or shouldn't vaccinate your baby. I have chosen not to and I'm looking for experiences from others who have done the same. What did you say? What did the doctor say? Did you discuss vaccination once the child was older or flat out decline all vaccines?

Panda I am sorry about your child, has the vaccine damage ever been recorded or acknowledged by a medical professional.

It is acknowledged and accepted, Mags (although not by all, of course, and to raises a few eyebrows in certain quarters).

Reported is another issue, for several reasons (a very long story, which would out me)

The problem we have here is the one that so often happens in threads like this. A reasonably robust debate was happening. Evidence was being given. Then a parent who is convinced that their child is vaccine damaged posts that anyone who doesn't immediately accept their account of their child's condition is being rude and disrespectful and usually "accusing parents of lying". Their version of events is sacrosanct. With no supporting evidence. Just "this is what happened"-you have no right to question it". This is usually effectively the end of the discussion. How is that acceptable?

There was no reasonably robust debate, Hakluyt. You were doing your best (as always) to wriggle out from giving firm, definitive, answers.

I have no intention of shutting down anything. You can continue to think (and debate) what you like.

The bit I take issue with is you definitively stating facts about my child when you have never met her, are not a doctor, and have no access to her medical notes. Yet you have the temerity to tell me you think I am mistaken about a well-accepted medical fact pertaining to my child? That's as ridiculous as me rocking up and telling you that you are mistaken (or perhaps even lying, after all it is quite fashionable in certain circles, so maybe you wanted to jump on the bandwagon) that your dd has red hair. You may like to believe that, but t isn't true, and what do you know anyway?

How is it acceptable in any way for you to dismiss my life, and deny my child's medical history, just because you can? Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.
And yes, of course you can hide behind 'but this is the internet, anyone can say anything'. I can assure you I am real, my daughter is real, and her autism is real. And linked to vaccinations.

I am not dismissing your life and your child's life. I know more than many about life with a severely autistic child. The only thing I question is the cause of your child's issues. And as you are so willing to share so much else about her life, I don't understand why you are not also willing to end the debate completely and forever by explaining the reasons, and giving the medical evidence that shows her autism was either caused or triggered by vaccination.

"You were doing your best (as always) to wriggle out from giving firm, definitive, answers. "

To what?

My sister was born in the 70s with a hole in her heart and was not allowed to be vaccinated.
I was vaccinated, but also carried bugs etc home to her and gave them to her with abandon!!
these included, measles, german measles, chickenpox and of course whooping cough.
We shared a room at the time and I can still recall the awful awful sound of her coughing night after night for about 2 months.
She had her vaccinations done when she was in her 20s as that was the first opportunity she had.

Tetanus.

Hakluyt
No. But a significant number who sustained puncture wounds in such circumstances did.

So you couldn't answer my questions relating to the basis for your claim above, regarding 'a significant number' of children contracting tetanus from puncture wounds before the introduction of tetanus vaccines. You subsequently quoted some figures for the US which had nothing to do with your statement. In fact you said of the unrelated figures you provided:

I don't know how many of them were children, and I don't know the figures for the UK.

So your claim, which you presented as a statement of fact, was made up.

Fascicle- before I waste my time getting figures for you, please could you say whether or not you believe vaccination works at all? I know people who don't, and I know it's no point trying to convince them.

I find your questions and quid pro quo approach bizarre. It's not a question of doing me a favour or trying to 'convince' anybody. It's a straightforward matter of providing evidence for a claim you have made. Which you are unable to do, because it turns out your statement was fabricated.

FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse
Wow, that's pretty scary Fascicle. So out of about 200 cases over 20 years, 13 Actually died. Despite western medicine etc. That's a huge percentage!

So over the 20 year period up to 2013, the death rate was approximately 1 every 1.5 years.

I don't know the analysis for the deaths, but looking at the numbers of people who contracted tetanus, there were 198 during the period, so:

10 cases per year amongst a population which is currently around 56 million.

Nearly half of the cases were in the 65 + age group.

No cases at all for the age group 0-4 and 5 cases in for the 5-14 age group.

How 'scary' do you consider tetanus to be, compared to e.g. chickenpox, which typically results in around 20 deaths per year?

Or cellulitis, which results in tens of thousands of hospital admissions each year, and hundreds of deaths in England and Wales?

Or flu, which results in thousands of hospital admissions each year and to which it is estimated that approximately 8,000 deaths per year in England are attributable?

Why do you (Pandas, Venus, LaVolcan, Bumbley) think that vaccines cause and/or trigger autism - do you not believe the results of the 100,000+ member studies that have been done as a result of your suspicions, or is this essentially a religious belief that no amount of evidence can dissuade you of? You might as well let us know now.

The fact that the Government pays out for vaccine damage convinces me that it can happen.

Fascicle - considering we are on a thread debating the exceptionally rare occurence of vaccine damage, it's odd that you're choosing a "who cares, it only affects 1 person a year" point of view - I imagine those 20 deaths from Chicken Pox matter very much to the families involved.

And are you questioning the typical transmission route of Tetanus? Do you not think it's associated with puncture wounds? Here is some information on how it generally develops:

www.cdc.gov/tetanus/about/causes-transmission.html

As you can see "The bacteria can get into the body through broken skin, usually through injuries from contaminated objects."

What is that if not a puncture wound?

I think anything that can cause death and is easily preventable (including, btw, Chicken Pox) is "scary" enough to warrant preventative measures to avoid the worst happening.

We all know vaccine damage happens, LaVolcan. But we know that it's very rare.

Why do you focus on it more than the things that really do kill and maim a lot of children in the UK - cars, pneumonia, meningitis?

Severe vaccine damage is a 1 in a million complication. It is not anywhere near the leading cause of mortality and morbidity for children in the country. Why the single minded focus on this one exceptionally rare occurence?

How do you know that I don't focus on those other things? I am hardly likely to come onto a vaccination board to talk about road safety campaigns!

Great to hear that you mainly focus on road safety and reducing meningitis and pneumonia. Of course, many more children would be dying of meningitis and pneumonia if not for the pneumococcal vaccine, the Hib vaccine and the meningitis C vaccine. Glad to hear to support these as well.

Aly, re differences between population and individual risk.

Do you acknowledge that certain people are more likely to develop certain diseases/conditions than others? For example, you can look at the population risk for a woman developing breast cancer in her life time BUT certain women are more susceptible to developing breast cancer due to their genetics (e.g.. Mutation in BRCA1/2 genes). So their individual risk is different compared to the rest of the population. It is now possible to identify those women. Similarly, they are trying to identify children who are more genetically susceptible to developing autism. (They have identified some biomarkers already).

DNA testing doesn't necessarily require blood.

I see Hak explained the 'causes' vs 'triggers' thing. Sorry, I thought the difference was obvious so I didn't explain further.

Hak, I'm not sure why you're willing to accept other environmental triggers for autism but not willing to consider vaccines as a possibility. That's the 'anything but' approach that some of us were talking about earlier. It does seem a bit strange.

I'm not sure why you're pointing out that children were regressing into autism before vaccines. Well, yes. No one is suggesting that vaccines are the only possible trigger. Some other environmental triggers have already been identified.

ALy - where did you get your info about the risk of serious side effects being 1 in 1 million?

This is from the Pediacel (5-in-1) insert (my emphasis):

Serious allergic reactions are a very rare possibility (may affect up to 1 in 10,000 people) after receiving any vaccine. These reactions may include:
? difficulty in breathing
? blueness of the tongue or lips
? a rash
? swelling of the face or throat
? low blood pressure causing dizziness or collapse.
When these signs or symptoms occur they usually develop quickly after the injection is given and while the child is still in the clinic or doctor’s surgery.

Other side effects

Very common reactions (may affect more than 1 in 10 people) are:
? loss of appetite
? irritability
? abnormal crying
? vomiting
? less active
? fever (temperature 38°C or higher)
? pain, redness, swelling

Common reactions (may affect up to 1 in 10 people) are: ? diarrhoea
? bruising and bleeding at the injection site
Uncommon (may affect up to 1 in 100 people) are:
? a fit (convulsion) with or without fever
? extensive limb swelling (from the injection site to beyond the joint)

The following additional side effects have been reported during the commercial use of PEDIACEL:
? allergic reactions, hives, swollen face
? high-pitched crying
? a period of floppiness and decreased responsiveness that gets better without treatment and has no after effects
? sleepy or drowsy (somnolence)
? paleness
? temporary absence of breathing
? rash
? pain in the vaccinated limb
? high fever (temperature 40.5°C or higher)
? injection site mass
? tiredness or lack of energy (asthenia)
? lethargic (listlessness)
? rarely skin reactions have been reported that may include rashes (which may be itchy), swelling of the lower limbs, blueness, redness, severe crying and sometimes a purple spotted rash of the legs that gets better without treatment.

Bumbley.

"Do you acknowledge that certain people are more likely to develop certain diseases/conditions than others? For example, you can look at the population risk for a woman developing breast cancer in her life time BUT certain women are more susceptible to developing breast cancer due to their genetics (e.g.. Mutation in BRCA1/2 genes). So their individual risk is different compared to the rest of the population. It is now possible to identify those women. Similarly, they are trying to identify children who are more genetically susceptible to developing autism. (They have identified some biomarkers already)."

You are conflating two things. We definitely know that some women are more susceptible than others and not only that, we can identify why. We have no idea what causes or triggers autism and we are nowhere finding out why, so there is no way for us to calculate this "individual" risk. However we can safely say vaccines at least have nothing to do with it, as for the 100th time, they are possibly the most studied hypothesized trigger/cause of autism out there.

You have still not outlined how you would find children with this supposed sensitivity and conduct research that you would accept.

Re 1 in a million: Bumbley, you've already asked me that. I've already answered. Read back through the thread and you'll find it.

And again, Bumbley, if OP said she never wanted to leave the house with her child because of the risk, what would you say to her? If you're scared of the low risk of vaccine reaction, why aren't you scared of crossing the road? Would you ever take your child swimming - how did you calculate their individual risk of drowning?

Bumbley.

"Do you acknowledge that certain people are more likely to develop certain diseases/conditions than others? For example, you can look at the population risk for a woman developing breast cancer in her life time BUT certain women are more susceptible to developing breast cancer due to their genetics (e.g.. Mutation in BRCA1/2 genes). So their individual risk is different compared to the rest of the population. It is now possible to identify those women. Similarly, they are trying to identify children who are more genetically susceptible to developing autism. (They have identified some biomarkers already)."

You are conflating two things. We definitely know that some women are more susceptible than others and not only that, we can identify why. We have no idea what causes or triggers autism and we are nowhere finding out why, so there is no way for us to calculate this "individual" risk. You seem very sure there is a way - care to outline how you would find children with this supposed sensitivity and conduct research that you would accept?

The reason I dismiss vaccines as a cause is because, for the 100th time, they are possibly the most studied hypothesized trigger/cause of autism out there. And there is no evidence at all that they do cause and/or trigger autism.

Re 1 in a million: Bumbley, you've already asked me that. I've already answered. Read back through the thread and you'll find it.

And again, Bumbley, if OP said she never wanted to leave the house with her child because of the risk, what would you say to her? If you're scared of the low risk of vaccine reaction, why aren't you scared of crossing the road? Would you ever take your child swimming - how did you calculate their individual risk of drowning?

Sorry for double post!

They actually do have some ideas for the causes and triggers of autism but they're still studying it. (hardly surprising given its complexity!) Not sure why you seem to think it's impossible to identify them. You do seem to be appreciating that there is a difference between population and individual risk now though so that's something.

They'll use similar approaches to what they have used to identify people with other genetic susceptibility to other diseases/conditions.

Sigh…most studied at population level perhaps.

So you're dismissing the 1 in 10,000 that the vaccine insert of Pediacel states and sticking with 1 in a million then?

That's 1 in 10,000 for a serious reaction btw. As you can see from above. The risk of any reaction is higher.

thats about the same risk as a serious reaction to antibiotics btw

What is a "serious" reaction?

See above Hak (post at 11.45)- It's from the pediacel insert.

or of course with dangerous odds like that, better stop driving. lifetime odds of dying in a car accident about 1:5000