MMR - is anyone here absolutely convinced that mmr caused autism/adverse reaction to a child they know?

[Jahan]

I don't want to start an mmr debate. I'm just interested in that question.

kittywits and essbee, I totally agree. They will never acknowledge it. Honestly, after having spoken to more than 5 consultants, it is almost like they have had to sign some paper saying they will refuse to entertain any relationship with any after effects or reaction to/of MMR, either that or they are brainwashed....?!!!

if they say anything they lose their jobs and alot more besides

Don't forget that the GP surgeries also lose their funding if they don't achieve the required rates of MMR vaccination amongst their patients!

So its impossible for hem to be honest if their very funding depends on them towing the party line.

Ruty - I totally agree with you. For me, single vaccines are the middle ground, but each parent has to do what they feel is best.

Lupo - what is the jabs forum? I'd like to have a look at it.

Mummypumpkin - I don't know your area. If it were me, I'd type "single measles vaccine" or "single measles vaccine oxfordshire" into google and see what comes up.

There may be other people on here who could point you to a local clinic - its probably worth starting a thread and see what people respond with.

ps Kittywits, I think the GMC have made a very good job of making an example of Andrew Wakefield - most lay people in the UK seem to think his research has been discredited, although other research done in the US has backed up his conclusions - so I think it is a very brave man/woman who isn't a government/GMC patsy. Who would be brave enough to do what their concience tells them if it means losing their career and having their family torn apart? Not many..

So true fatfox, so sad though. I continue to live in hope that one day this whole scandal will be exposed.

As far as the rubella vaccine is concerned - I've never had it, have been vaccinated twice but I'm apparently still not immune. There was an outbreak at school when I was 10 - everyone else in my class got it, almost everyone at school got it, my 3 siblings got it - I didn't. I had the test & jab when I was a teenager. I was tested when I was ttc my first child, found not to be immune & given the jab. But when I was pregnant I was tested again & was still not immune. My doctor thought I had a natural immunity which didn't show up in the tests - but I'm not sure what this shows about the efficacy of either the test or the vaccine.

Rusty -that's really interesting - I wonder if any of your LOs will also be immune?

I'm not sure - DS, now 18 had the MMR at 14 months - think he was one of the first to have it, but he didn't get the booster which DD (now 16)had at school He's just off to Warwick University & he's had a letter from the health centre suggesting he gets a booster as apparently there's an increased risk to his age group.

fatfox - do you have a link to this new US research ?

Hub' - no sorry I'm rubbish at things like that (links).I read it in a newspaper (the daily mail?) a few months back. There was also another article last week in the Mail, with a leading UK researcher backing Wakefield's research and talking about the dodginess of some vaccines currently used generally. I can't recall his name, but you could do a search on the Daily Mail website as its recent.

Jimjams and Kittywits seem to be a great at sourcing at the most up to date research & presentations on this subject and there are some links further down the thread.

By the way, I can't stand the Daily Mail generally , but it has been following the MMR debate very closely.

Don't worry fatfox... it's just the 'official' (governmental / peer-reviewed etc.) analysis of his research seems not to support his findings, so it would be interesting to read work which does IYSWIM.

FWIW, I didn't think the Informed Parent site was terribly objective / informative. I always get worried when text descends from understandable info into (what IMHO) is over-simplified pseudo-science. On this page the analysis of Th1 / Th2 immunity balance is attributed to Hilary Butler "a vaccine researcher", but googling the phrase "Th2-skewed immune system" brings other sites / blogs which tend to resemble cut and pastes of VERY similar text with a few tweaks and different names floating round. To be clear, I have very very little scientific understanding of immunology / vaccination science and would be happy to be further educated from anyone with much more experience in this area who can clarify the soundness of this Th1 / Th2 'skewing' theory.

Perhaps I am just FAR TOO CYNICAL, LOL, but aren't they just trying to flog their 'download for £1.50 fact sheet' (if the information is objective and relevant to millions of people facing MMR jabs why not publish and disseminate it for free ?). Or their £15 newsletter which seems to be a cut and paste of various 'views' on vaccination ("The views which are expressed in the newsletter are not necessarily those of The Informed Parent Co. Ltd. We are simply bringing these various viewpoints to your attention.").

Skim this text to see what I mean about the same text being cut and pasted in many guises. The link at the end takes you to a 'Medicine Free Living' blog where they sell 'Transfer Factor' Immune Support pills ($55 for 50) off what appears to be a multi-level marketing 'health products' site (as well as 'Amigo Juice' 'Glyconutrients' and 'liquid zeolite' ('NCD') ... yep, all from different MLM players...

Being a curious guy, I spent a while googling Ms. Butler. I think "vaccine researcher" possibly lends her a medical air... she is a journalist. Her 'letter to the BMJ' (oft referred to in the vax discussion sites) is here . Good discussion follows ! Also look here for another post by her (It reflects an observation (by her husband, a teacher) that autism was rarely observed 20 years ago...), again another nice discussion can be followed.

LOL - th1 / th2 skewing questioned here If I've understood the abstract.

Fatfox

jabs forum has lots of info from parents on the talk forum who believe their kids where damaged by the mmr and lots of helpful advice and info about mmr and new vaccine that is being introduced. def worth a look

The Th1/Th2 is complex/ an oversimplification of the issues and has to be presented to a lay audience. I'm not sure I fully understand it. Anyway basic gist is that if you are born with an immune system skewed (naturally/genetically) to the Th2 system then you ar emore at risk of developing autoimmune conditions (such as autism), and vaccination supposedly push you a little further towards Th2 (although you are fine if Th1 skewed). That is HUGE oversimplification though.

I personally think of it as some family histories show a risk of autoimmune conditions, and fiddling (with whatever) could push you further into that- so I avoid fiddling of any sorts. Hence we only use antibiotics if aboslutely necessary (and I doi think antibiotics are the wonder drug of the 20th centrury- just completely over-used and so rendered destructive rather than incredible) ditto calpol ditto jabs.

The general problem with jabs is different from specific issues surrounding MMR though (because in the case of MMR an alternatiive is available, and the specidifc risk factors seem to be associated around bowel diseases).

i still don't quite understand how single measles jabs are safer for those with gut susceptibility/auto imune history Jimjams - I don't know if there is any more info on that...

Some regression recorded, but fewer. At a theoretical level mumps alters the permeability of membranes- as of course gut problems do.

Alo for gulf war syndrome (where affecgted vets often have IAG in their urine), there has been a link shown between certain combinations of vaccines and developing the syndrome. Aloha knew lots about that (Paul Shattock would as well I guess).

yes that is my worry Jimjams - if your child has no pre-existing gutpermeability problems then I can see how singles are safer - but if the gut is already suffering I am not sure if single measles [or indeed the disease itself] is safer. I must try to ask Paul Shattock sometime.

Wish Aloha would come back.

Thanks for the Th clarification jimjams. I don't think that 'summary page' I linked to does much to develop the understanding in a particularly constructive way !

Mummypumpkin, I'm in Oxfordshire too and can only find a clinic in Herts for single vaccs. Did you manage to find anywhere closer? Would be grateful to know if you did.

Ok, just started on here and have been looking at this. The answer is so obvious that even in my research I didnt even notice "the obvious".
The answer is "not one size fits all".
What I mean by that, is some parents are immuno compromised, and the baby/child maybe as well, and the effects of different vaccines, effect different people at different times. eg I read that any parent that has some immune disorder compromise has a 60%-70% chance of having an autistic baby, and that is without intervention of a vaccine, and the inference in the article is that the compromise in the child or in the baby is increases the risk of autism further.

How many of us know whether we have an immune system issue, usually happens as you get older.