Measles outbreak in Europe

[bubbleymummy]

Interesting that there was a large outbreak in Bulgaria in 2009/2010 despite a vaccination rate of 96% Figures here

YOu are rambling about nothing to be honest, you don't make sense about anything you are saying

take this statement
I couldn't see what happened to the other two. One must assume they didn't find wild measles infection, otherwise they would say so.

"Four children with a history of receipt of a measles containing vaccine were reported not to have had measles; two of these cases had a brain biopsy, and nucleotide sequence data confirmed wild measles infection. Brain biopsy specimens from a further three cases with a history of measles, of whom two had also had a history of vaccination, showed wild-type strain."

It is clear from this statement the other two didn't have brain biopsies!

"Brain biopsy
Brain biopsy was performed on a total of five patients, all of
whom had wild strain measles virus identified by nucleotide
sequencing of the H and N genes.10 These included two of the
four with a history of vaccination but no history of measles
(table 1). All five cases were born between 1979 and 1985 and
had biopsy specimens taken between 1997 and 2000; all
measles nucleotide sequences were consistent with the wild
strains known to be circulating in the 1980s and 1990s."

What proof do you have that any measles vaccine causes SSPE other than it has been reprorted throught the VAERS system that some children that had mmr went on to have SSPE. Interestingly the Encephalitis Society says Measles Vaccine does not cause SSPE

"http://www.encephalitis.info/images/iPdf/Resources/FactSheets/fs043MeaslesMumps.pdf fact sheet"

I am not rambling about nothing at all - certainly not in any way confused. Why do you feel the need to use that term "rambling" when my posts are crystal clear?

I don't think that what you say is clear from your post is very clear actually.

As regards proof: I don't claim proof. Pims does, and Caterina does. I'm not sure if you do, I can't remember. But they claim absolute proof of the negative. The entire thrust of my argument is that this doesn't exist and - so far - I'm not seeing it in the links provided.

I've said : it's listed as an adverse event by the manufacturer. They claim proof there is no link. I've asked for that to be provided and urged them to take it up with the manufacturer who updated the information just two years ago. They have so far not been able to give any such proof.

fact sheet

Bruffin: I've already linked to the manufacturers' adverse reactions sheet.

They are not crystal clear, honestly!
ie
Why are you getting upset because Catherine said 47 instead of 58? They weren't all cases where they had measles vaccine, they were cases of proven SSPE>

The cases covered did not all have a measles vaccine, 11 couldn't be included because they couldn't get full records becasue they had left the country. 23 of the 47 had a mealses vaccine. 5 had a biopsy and they all proved to have wild measles.

Let me do so one more time. I can't get on for a while so I hope this helps.

The manufacturer lists SSPE as an adverse event, going so far as to say that despite this, vaccine contributes to the decline of SSPE.

Pims and Caterina claim there is proof that the link does not exist despite the fact that although this "proof" is available the manufacturer has chosen not to use it.

I've asked for this proof. It hasn't been offered.

I have had trickery, name-changing, abuse (and an apology), derogatory personal hints. There have been false claims and misleading statements.

But not the proof they claim. I'm just asking for proof. It's a proof Caterina and Pims claim. They've tied themselves in knots trying to deal with this but can't supply it. Your link doesn't do that either - I'm sure you realise that.

YOu don't seem to understand what an adverse event is
It just means that some people who had SSPE also had MMR, it does not mean the MMR caused the SSPE. What Pims and Catherina are saying is there are no proven cases of MMR causing SSPE, everyone that has been investigated was caused by wild measles.
You expect everyone else to provide proof that MMR doesn't cause SSPE but are unwilling to do any work to actually prove that it does.
I also don't see the point of you obsessing with SSPE because even if some of those cases did prove to be caused by MMR the risk is still far greater from the actually disease especially to babies. The risk of SSPE to under twos is 1-8000. The way to protect babies is from herd immunity which can only be achieved through vaccination.
I would also point out that MMR is done at 13 months at a time when children are most at risk from SSPE. If MMR was causing SSPE there would be a noticeable amount of children degenerating at 9 or 10 years of age and it doesn't seem to be happening.

thanks Bruffin - you got it :)

So, are you all saying that it's pointless even bothering to read a vaccine insert as we can't rely on what it says? So, where are we to go for accurate information on the risks of the vaccine?
I've just looked at that leaflet again to see if I can work out what is in the MMR. I'll need at least an hour on Google to translate it. Make that two hours.

Tabitha if you worried you that much you would be looking before you got to the surgery and then comparing it to the risk of the disease.
Nobody is saying you can't rely on what it said, bluebertie has misunderstood what it said.

Bruffin, the ordinary man in the street should not be having to do that level of research. All I'm asking for in accurate, simple information about the risks of the vaccine and the risks of the ingredients. If I wanted to be a scientist, I would've been.

Centers for Disease Control (US) report on measles outbreak in 2008.

Quote:
'In the United States, measles caused 450 reported deaths and 4,000 cases of encephalitis annually before measles vaccine became available in the mid-1960s (1). Through a successful measles vaccination program, the United States eliminated endemic measles transmission (1). Sustaining elimination requires maintaining high MMR vaccine coverage rates, particularly among preschool (>90% 1-dose coverage) and school-aged children (>95% 2-dose coverage) (7). High coverage levels provide herd immunity, decreasing everyone's risk for measles exposure and affording protection to persons who cannot be vaccinated. However, herd immunity does not provide 100% protection, especially in communities with large numbers of unvaccinated persons...
Measles is one of the first diseases to reappear when vaccination coverage rates fall. Ongoing outbreaks are occurring in European countries where rates of vaccination coverage are lower than those in the United States, including Austria, Italy, and Switzerland (3,4). In June 2008, the United Kingdom's Health Protection Agency declared that, because of a drop in vaccination coverage levels (to 80%--85% among children aged 2 years), measles was again endemic in the United Kingdom (3,8), 14 years after it had been eliminated. Since April 2008, two measles-related deaths have been reported in Europe, both in children ineligible to receive MMR vaccine because of congenital immunologic compromise (4,8). Such children depend on herd immunity for protection from the disease, as do children aged

Ok, so give everyone the choice of singles, then.
By the way, the second dose of MMR isn't actually a booster, is it? it is the same jab, designed to pick up those few who weren't protected by the first dose.

Caterina: you know very well that Bruffin has not "got it".

You and Pims are claiming that it is proved that there is no link - EVER - between vaccine and SSPE. This is despite an assessment by the manufacturer of MMR-II that there probably is - however small.

You have been asked to supply your proof and have failed. You've been asked to withdraw your claim of proof and you have not done so.

You expect everyone else to provide proof that MMR doesn't cause SSPE
Yes I do - if they claim proof.

but are unwilling to do any work to actually prove that it does.

I don't claim proof. I have linked to the Merck insert which quotes CDC epidemiology to the effect that there is probably a small connection.

I also don't see the point of you obsessing about SSPE

What is it about pro-vaccinists that they feel the need to use derogatory language? SSPE is the subject under discussion. Why do you feel this need Bruffin? It is more scientific to focus on what is being debated.

If MMR was causing SSPE there would be a noticeable amount of children degenerating at 9 or 10 years of age and it doesn't seem to be happening.

Well how interesting. I doubt any notice would be taken at all if it was happening. No notice has been taken of tens of thousands of children degenerating in a different way.

Please try not to be personal and derogatory. It is not necessary if you have confidence in what you are trying to say.

So, are you all saying that it's pointless even bothering to read a vaccine insert as we can't rely on what it says?

To save you reading back: yes, Pims has said this. She (or he) said this is why she does her own research.

An idea with which most people who question vaccines would most emphatically agree.

Bruffin's claim that I have misunderstood is quite wrong: it's possible she hasn't read Pims' posts.

Your efforts to be personal again are mistaken. You need to step back.

Have you any response to the points I have made? I'm interested solely in this conversation about SSPE.

What do you think "mistaken" means?

I didn't start anything - now you are just squabbling. You've said I'm rambling, upset, obsessed - it seems you can't stick to what's at issue and need to be insulting.

The question at hand

Does Measle Vaccine cause the SSPE?

The answer

There is no proof that it does.

There is no absolute proof that it doesn't, but it is extremely unlikely

Some people who develope SSPE have been vaccinated but have no record of having contracting measles. Those that have been investigated have shown to have contracted wild measles at some point and their SSPE was caused by wild measles.
None of the others have been investigated so we cannot tell if their cases of SSPE was caused by the vaccine or wild measles.

There does not appear to be any cases that have been investigated where vaccine strain has been shown to be the cause of SSPE, so there is no proof that SSPE has ever been caused by a vaccine strain of measles

All Merk have said in their leaflet was that an adverse events have been reported, which just means that some people who have mmr have gone on to have SSPE, because they have not been investigated it could be that the vaccine caused it at the very worst case senario. However it if it did, it is very very rare and much rarer than SSPE caused by wild measles.

Who are the tens of thousands of children degenerating in a different way? Do you mean the autism link?

Conclusion epidemiological and viralogical data suggests that measles vaccine does not cause SSPE

again only wild measles found

These findings suggest that the MV strains prevailing in the highlands of PNG belong to genotype D3 of the MV and this wild-type MV rather than the vaccine strains was likely to be responsible for SSPE in these patients.

An interesting thought on SSPE from this site.

'When considering at which point in time the measles vaccination poses less of a risk we must therefore ask ourselves when the immune system in the TH2-TH2 area is sufficiently stable. Achieving a stable balance seems to vary from each child to the next but it is completed after the age of three to five years. (pressearchiv-kubitschek.www.de/pharma-presse/presseerklaerungen/texte/pharma_medikamente/alk_scherax/alk_scherax_140400.html ). This could be the reason why it would be better not to vaccinate against the measles but at least not to vaccinate MMR.

In the USA and Finland SSPE has become extremely rare since the drop in wild measles.

As is known, subclinical measles occur in the first year of life if maternal antibodies are present. ( www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10195680&query_hl=1 ). It is these types of cases that seem to have a predisposition for SSPE (the wild virus CNS is then discovered in them). Measles that do not include a visible rash could be a decisive factor for the development of SSPE. The children apparently do not manage to eliminate the virus in this case. It is also possible that administering medication that lowers fevers could prevent elimination of the virus.'

Measles don't circulate in Finland or the US, therefore, SSPE does not occur.

The Bachmair text is unintelligible otherwise. Can you paraphrase what you think he is talking about and what he proposes? Clearly, SSPE rates drop tremendously when measles circulation is stopped by measles containing vaccines. There is no way to make this consistent with the idea that measles containing vaccine cause SSPE.