Measles outbreak in Europe

[bubbleymummy]

Interesting that there was a large outbreak in Bulgaria in 2009/2010 despite a vaccination rate of 96% Figures here

In fact I emailed my friend in Gent about this outbreak, the outbreak was in her children's school (I've just reread the email). She says that many children at the school are not vaccinated and there was at least a couple of cases in each class of measles . The school children were offered vaccinations and booster vaccinations. My friend's children didn't get the illness as they have been vaccinated.

No, they cannot carry it!! Unvaccinated people catch it from other unvaccinated people.

TBH I was giving the thread the benefit of the doubt in saying that in exceptional cases vaccinated people might get the symptoms again but much reduced. We are talking a fraction of a fraction of a percentage here.

So people are only going to catch measles from infected, unvaccinated people.

People with immune problems can catch it even if they have been vaccinated eg. children having chemotherapy.

Re herd immunity though, for one thing, having a percentage uptake for a whole country is misleading in the sense that there can (and are) areas where the take-up is much lower. And isn't the article saying that the level of travel in modern society lowers the effectiveness of herd immunity, which really only works if none of the people around you get the disease so you can't catch it. It is a description of an effect, rather than an actual level of immunity.

And whilst the USA does have mandatory immunisation for public schooling, the vast majority of states have at least two exemptions (I think religious or philosophical grounds as well as medical) so it really doesn't mean that all American children are immunised.

Yes, belgo, that would make sense. They would have difficulty generating the B-cell memory lymphocytes made as a result of the vaccination or the T-helper cells that are needed to trigger the immune response. I would imagine it would improve again once they recovered from thee chemotherapy

sorry, that should read 'generating the b-cell plasma cells from the b-cell memory cells... '

its not mandatory to vaccinate your children in the USA in order to enter them into state schooling. That is a myth. There is an exemption be it medical, religious, or philosophical, in every single state.

cool name, nicevid I remember it well....!

I like Rowan Atkinson's song about turning into a rubber ball and bouncing, but it wasn't as fabulous a name as this one :)

I quite like 'gob on you!'... and 'because I'm wet and only' !

MigratingCoconuts, you were right the first time. Being vaccinated does not mean you can't catch it - it just makes it much less likely. 1 out of every 100 vaccinated is still unprotected. That means that more vaccinated people will have measles than unvaccinated (given the relative sizes of the groups)

Having had the disease also makes it unlikely (but not impossible) for you to catch it again.

Then you have all those who are too young for the vaccinations or too sick. If it were just a few isolated groups of people who didn't vaccinate then they'd have no one to catch it from, but it is more than that.

"1 out of every 100 vaccinated is still unprotected."

onager: where did you get this stat from?

Well we just got a note at school about it - apparently it's hit round me quite hard and we have a low vaccination rate. The school are talking informally about what to do if a major outbreak occurs (this is a school where all but three children got swine flu during the first outbreak).

redismyfavourite, I got it from Bupa in one case. I was surprised because although I knew it wasn't perfect, I assumed it was more like one in 10,000.

What they actually said was this:

The first dose of the MMR vaccine is likely to give 90 percent of those receiving it protection against measles and mumps, and 97 percent of people protection against rubella. This means that out of 100 people given the vaccine, around 90 will then be immune to measles and mumps, and around 97 immune to rubella.

so to start with you have 10 out of a 100 unprotected for measles etc.

Ninety-nine out of 100 people will be protected against all three illnesses after the second dose.

Phrased slightly ambiguously on this site since they say for all three. I expect it's in lots of other places too and you can see the pattern with the first dose which they spell out.

I do believe that quote about the vaccine not being 100% effective in everyone. That's why herd immunity is so important.

Differences in the way the vaccine is given (how it is kept for example) and how the body reacts to the vaccine will influence how effective that vaccine is.

For example I've had the BCG vaccine (against TB) but didn't react adequately to it, and am probably not totally immune.

9y ago, when I was deciding whether or not to give dc1 the MMR, I read that toddlers who are still being breastfed by mums who have natural immunity to measles do not respond well to the MMR. Not in the sense of side-effects, but in the sense that they do not then go on to develop immunity in response to the immunisation.

I wanted to clear up this image painted of all the sensible people being vaccinated and having to suffer because of those who were not. In fact there are enough vaccinated people for whom it didn't work to ensure that everyone knows several and has the opportunity to catch it if they are going to.

Prettycandles - that;s a pretty scary statement, don't suppose you can find the article? I don't understand why that would be true but then immunity is incredibly complicated.

I've no idea if it's still current thought. And even so, the number of toddlers still bfd after 12m is such a small group, even smaller when you discount all those whose mums did not have measles, that I'm not convinced about the statistics. I went ahead and MMRed my extended bfd dc, albeit not until they were nearly 2 and about to start nursery.

I'll have a rummage when I have a mo, see if I can still find the abstracts. But, as last dc has just had his pre-school boosters, I'm now beyond that stage and may already have cleared them out.

Knackeredmother so how was the boy? Fine I suspect.

My Gran and her 3 sisters and one brother had it.
My mum and her 4 brothers had it as did her cousins
My Dad and his 6 sisters had it......I could go on. Nobody died!

My mum even said we had it but then (70's) they started scare mongering on the TV and in newspapers about all of these horrific complications and deaths and she rushed out and got us vaccinated !

I now have no immunity to Rubella as the vaccination cancels natural immunity but is nowhere near as long lasting or effective.

My cousin did end up paralysed from the neck down and blind at 16 when she got a Rubella Vac and died last year aged 41 because of complications so there you go, big family but one did die .

Try to keep in mind that these childhood illnesses did alot of good in giving us all immunity in later life. It was the best herd immunisation ever and I suspect there will always be complications with both.

These vaccinations prove time and time again they are no match to natural immunity and muck up something that worked.

If they worked we wouldn't need 30/40+ vaccs and boosters would we?

Sorry 'had it' meaning wild measles, german measles and mumps.

"I think the point is that people who have been immunised have caught measles in large numbers."

There is evidence to suggest this is not the case. If we take Germany as an example:
82,057,000 population
780 cases of measles.
This equates out to 0.000951% of the population, this is nowhere near the 4% that are not vaccinated. source. This does not suggest that the vaccine is not effective.

G33k - how does that prove that none of the cases are in vaccinated people? I'm not sure what your point is tbh!

The point I was making was that the 95% figure clearly doesn't give herd immunity.

Belgo, we don't have herd immunity to measles from the vaccine in the UK and never have. Vaccine uptake had never been 95% although obviously that wouldn't be good enough anyway.

Red herrings seem to be breeding in this thread. There is a serious outbreak of measles across the channel. The summer holidays are approaching. Those not vaccinated against measles are at risk. It is a nasty illness for and a dangerous one for some. There is no other way to protect 'em other than to have 'em vaccinated.

I am currently researching this topic as my MIL is against vaccines to the extent that 1 of her daughters hasn't had her other daughter hasn't had any since she was 6 months old and we have no idea what my DH has had or not had - although he did get measles and mumps as a teenager we were concerned we would have trouble concieving but seems to be OK as my DS is the spit of his dad so no arguments on fertility there :)

There are some interesting points raised but they do seem to be contradictory.
My opinion as it stands - and for what its worth - is you are putting the population at risk by not being vaccinated Measles is dangerous and the fact that it is spreading in Europe (and America) means it may very likely get worse here - I have read nearly 500 cases this year and 18 deaths in the UK although trying to find facts rather than reporting from sensationalist media.

I got the single measles vaccination which wasn't completely effective as I was breastfed, got measles at a young age but it was very mild, I have had hearing problems since but they are not extreme. The mildness of the case was put down to the vaccine.

Measles can kill - fact, you are more likely to have complications from measles than a vaccine. Vaccines won't leave you completely immune but may give you enough immunity to fight off without side effects and to stop the spread to other people.

The article saying MMR jabs are on the rise is tallking about vaccinations that are now there was a void in which many people didn't get vaccinated and this is very likely to be where the disease is hitting and then being passed on to people who are vaccinated or young children. I probably have a certain amount of immunity as I have had the single vaccine and Measles so breastfeeding my 6 month old is the only immunity he has until he is old enough for the vaccine. Not everyone has been vaccinated, not everyone breastfeeds, not everyone will be lucky and only get a mild case of measles this needs to be stopped before it turns into an epidemic and people who are suggesting measles parties so there kids catch it young like chicken pox need to do some more research!

Sorry was only supposed to be a short message but went off on one a bit!