Chickenpox vaccine - yes or no?

[sayitwithme]

Interested in experiences, thoughts or opinions, strong or indifferent, on the concept of vaccinating our kids against chickenpox. I believe it's part of the routine vaccination program in the States. Should it be offered here in the UK? It currently costs around £100 to have the vaccine in the UK - would you pay/have you paid? If not, why not?

Call it a straw poll if you will.

bubbleymummy - do you have any figures for that? Genuine question as I'm really interested in this issue. I have figures on retaining immunity following infection:

"a 2007 study showed that after having chickenpox, 75% of children between 1-4 years of age had developed immunity against the varicella-zoster virus, a figure that increased to 89% for children between 5-9 years of age, and 100% for adults who were between 20-29 years of age." .

I did just find this on one website:

"How effective is this vaccine?
Almost all (97%) children between age 12 months and 12 years develop immunity to the disease after one dose of vaccine. For older children and adults, an average of 78% develop immunity after one dose and 99% develop immunity after the recommended two doses.

Although some vaccinated children (about 2%) will still get chickenpox, they generally will have a much milder form of the disease, with fewer blisters (typically fewer than 50), lower fever, and a more rapid recovery. The vaccine almost always prevents against severe disease. Getting chickenpox vaccine is much safer than getting chickenpox disease."

Although it was the first site I found and I'm not sure of the reliability of the data.

Think it may be a somewhat pro-vaccine site, so maybe not the best source of objective information!

OK, this from NHS Choices again:

"How effective is the vaccine?
It has been shown that 9 out of 10 children vaccinated with a single dose will develop immunity against chickenpox. A two-dose schedule is now recommended for all, as it gives a better immune response.

Three-quarters of teenagers and adults who are vaccinated will develop immunity against chickenpox."

Maybe I'm missing something here (entirely possible as I can be a bit of a dumb*ss at times!) but I think these two excerpts from NHS Choices suggest that getting the vaccination provides more guarantee of retaining immunity?

at "in denial" - I am just correcting your single standpoint view of history, ikaty.

Single standpoint??

What do you mean by that?

Oh and golly yeah I think a world where we were forced to vaccinate would be awful and wrong I don't want a world like that at all. I just wish people realised the way vaccine works and the good they have brought the world - there is a LOT of misunderstanding on the issue and we in the UK do have the luxury of denying our own or our children's vaccinations, many don't and would love to rather than see their children die before them one by one of entirely preventable disease.

Yes, DD2 had the vaccine as it's routine here in Singapore. Protects against shingles in later life too - saw my grandmother suffer with this and she was in excruciating pain. If I can avoid my kids going through that, I will.

Shingles is a reactivation of the chicken pox virus that you can only get if you have had chicken pox first. If you are vaccinated against chicken pox you won't get it ergo you won't get shingles.

How on earth do you get waning immunity from the vaccine causing shingles? My DS was not vaccinated against chicken pox. He had it as a baby and had shingles at age 2. Nothing to do with the vaccine whatsoever.

interesting info re: chicken pox vaccine and shingles here

silverfrog, that link is interesting, and confirms my gut feeling (i know, i know, someone will leap in and tell me off for 'conjecture' instead of cold hard facts, but what the hell, most of parenting is about gut instinct) that there is a certain arrogance in thinking that we can keep using vaccines to eradicate all these diseases without the diseases fighting back one way or another... the balance of nature/law of unforeseen consequences and all that

Ok so my "gut instinct" could be wrong that the CP vaccine would protect against shingles. Hmm, I guess gut instinct isn't always right then! But then my DS didn't have the vaccine, he did have "natural" CP, and pretty badly, he was exposed to CP several times (since children aren't normally vaccinated against it here) and yet he still ended up with shingles when he was 2.

I don't understand why you would be thrown out of surgeries for not vaccinating though. Lots of people don't vaccinate and I've never heard of anyone being thrown out of a surgery for it before.

Leonie I'm sure I've read that children who get less than 20 spots aren't likely to be immune from CP, just an FYI.

DS's main shingles spot was like that, but really horribly deep. He's got a nasty scar from it.

Astrophe, how do you know your child(ren) will get a milder version because of the vaccine? They may have had a mild version anyway. Surely if the vaccine had worked they wouldn't get them at all.

MmeLindt: Diarrhoes is listed as one of the common complications on the NHS website here

"Some of the common complications of measles are:
diarrhoea,
vomiting,
eye infection (conjunctivitis), and
inflammation of the voice box (laryngitis).
Inner ear infection and inflammation (otitis media), which often causes earache, may also be a complication of measles.
Fits that are caused by a fever (febrile convulsions) are also possible complications of measles. However, the fits, although alarming, are not usually dangerous."

So the common complications - which not ALL children will get are not that severe and actually could occur with any virus.

Diarrhoea

sayitwithme - yes I had a look at the figures on the NHS website and it does seem to be the case that while contracting chickenpox in adulthood is more effective, it is less of a guarantee if you are under 4(75% ) and the vaccine is less effective in adults but more effective in children. However, the current estimation is that the vaccine only lasts 5-7 years and then requires another booster and then no one knows how long that will last and how many more boosters you can actually have. So although the vaccine appears to give a better guarantee of immediate immunity, it is not long lasting. In comparison, having chickenpox under 10 may not guarantee immunity BUT if you do acquire immunity you have it for life.

Also, from those figures you would need to bear in mind that the vaccine may not protect you in adulthood when there is a greater chance of complications.

iKaty, we have the luxury of living in a country with good sanitation, living conditions, healthcare and nutrition. Things like diarrhoea would also be deadly in the countries that you are talking about yet we hardly worry about it here. If you look at the figures on the HPA website you can see just how much the incidence of these diseases had decreased PRIOR to the introduction of vaccines - they were not the saviour that some people believe them to be - they may have had some effect but other factors had much more of an impact.

I told my paediatrician that I didn't want DD2 to have loads of vaccinations that might be less than necessary and he told me that the CP vaccine could protect against shingles. Supporting text here

"Immunity to the virus declines with advancing age, making older adults vulnerable to shingles," says Norberto Soto, M.D., principal investigator for the Shingles Prevention Study at the National Institutes of Health site in Bethesda, Md. "We believe that by boosting the body's immune response with this vaccine, shingles and its complications may be prevented."

Shingles epidemics on a macro level are a different kettle of fish...

"i know, i know, someone will leap in and tell me off for 'conjecture' instead of cold hard facts, but what the hell, most of parenting is about gut instinct"

I agree with that. Problem is, if you search the internet you can find "facts" that support both sides of the argument.

So we pick out the statistics that support the viewpoint that we have, and use them to bash other parents rather than saying, "That is your decision to make and I wish you and your family luck with it".

mmelindt, I think that is rather harsh. (ref the bashing comment)

I don't think I have done that.

I have asked questions, and said why I don't think it is a necessary jab for my children.

and yes, I would agree there is supporting evidence for both sides of the argument.

which is why I tend ot say read up as much as you can, form both sides of the argument, and come to your own conclusion as to what is right, for your family.

vaccination is not a one size fits all situation, however much some people might want it to be.

and, on the whole, the people who most stridently say "ignore the others, they are plain wrong" tend to be the people who vaccinate.

ther eis nothing wrong with listening to and researching the whole subject, and I believe that is what people shoudl do, rather than just blindly following on without researching or questioning.

Sorry, Silverfrog, you have misunderstood my meaning.

I have enjoyed this thread as the comments have been very measured and the discussion without insults or hyperbole.

It is in stark contrast to the kind of thread on AIBU at the moment (don't look if you value your blood pressure).

I mean that often both sides bash each other with their arguments.

oh, sorry