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General election 2024

To be surprised how many threads on here are about …

273 replies

Ednasharples · 30/06/2024 15:55

Labour making a hash of things. It’s like we are living in a weird kind of masochistic Stockholm syndrome. Most of us are experiencing the reality of broken Tory Britain, where nothing works (unless you live in a very well off area I guess) but we’re being gaslit that everything is hunky dory.
I listened to Oliver Dowden literally shouting over the interviewer on LBC this morning, telling us how taxes will shoot up within 6 months of KS being PM, how British children are the best readers in the universe, how Rishi single handedly brought down inflation (but funnily enough had nowt to do with it going up). I read on here that Labour hate women, hate rich people, hate aspiration, and will raise the red flag over Buckingham palace after Starmer has been overthrown by Corbyn.

It’s like the country is facing an existential threat to its survival if Labour win despite Tory Brexit, Tory austerity, Tory cronyism, life expectancy falling because of a whole scale drop in living standards, children becoming fatter and sicker. It’s just all very odd and I’m struggling to understand it …

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scalt · 01/07/2024 06:34

I’ve loathed all politicians since the day Tony Blair was elected, for their complete lack of accountability: Blair and Johnson were the personification of the self-serving politician facing absolutely no consequences for their crimes. Both are now incredibly wealthy, instead of being in prison where they should be. We ordinarily folk can end up in prison for lying about who was driving a speeding car; they told much bigger lies, and were rewarded. It enrages me that so many politicians were born into wealth and privilege, and have no idea about the world everybody else lives in. We need more politicians from humble beginnings, who worked their way up. (I know Thatcher was one such - she was affected by the God complex eventually. Perhaps this is why nobody should be prime minister for more than two consecutive terms. Johnson thought he could be prime minister for ever, and he almost said so.)

We’re making the choice between “outstandingly horrendous” and “slightly less outstandingly horrendous”. Even if the conservatives were the “better” choice, I would not be voting for them, because that would be tacit support of the last fourteeen years. I didn’t know who to vote for after Blair’s second term; was I going to vote for the one who had called an illegal war, for no reason other than simply wanting to play with his toy soldiers? I’m reluctant to vote Labour this time because they cheered lockdowns on, and did not voice a shred of opposition or concern about the damage they caused, and are still keeping absolutely silent about this. If the party would at least acknowledge that the measures they were demanding more of are one reason that the younger generation has suffered so much, and start talking about how they will help this generation, I would have more respect for them.

Meadowtrees · 01/07/2024 06:38

Quiet, red tooth, a swing to the right after the inevitable failure of Labour to deliver is a terrifying prospect. And get bing the vote to 16 year olds increases this risk, as does Labours identity politics.

RubySloth · 01/07/2024 06:41

Can't believe how many threads are bashing anything considered right. We don't have threads about Green/ lib dems.

I find these threads pointless, no-one is going to sit at the ballotbox and day, MN has really changed my mind. Infact the more hate and animosity I see the more, I want to vote for these parties.

It's down to everyone's experience, so why are you telling people, how they should think, they aren't stupid and know how the last amount of years have affected them good or bad. Everyone will vote for there own agenda and no amount of piles on will stop people voting for what they feel is best for them.

BIossomtoes · 01/07/2024 06:52

Meadowtrees · 01/07/2024 05:46

They’ve been in power having taken on an economy that had been wrecked by Labour, and then had a series of dire global events to deal with - the same as all countries.

Really? Wrecked by Labour? The global financial crisis that started in the US passed you by? Look what they did when they inherited a “wrecked economy”.

To be surprised how many threads on here are about …
KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 01/07/2024 06:52

I’m surprised by what looks to me like naivety, looking to labour for rescue from the way the world currently is. It’s as though there’s a narrative that Covid, the financial crash, the suez (or was it panama) being blocked, Ukraine, Gaza… all that would somehow not have happened if only we’d had labour in charge. Rich people do tend to get richer- it’s kind of what money does when there’s enough of it. That’s why people like having it.

We’ve lived through turbulent times, and there is no counterfactual. All the pontificating is with hindsight. It’s like blaming your parents for moving house after a house fire.

I didn’t vote this lot in. I didn’t vote for Brexit. I don’t believe in Father Christmas and don’t think Labour will wipe all the tears away. I do think they will shaft women in their rush to be Santa to all those poor marginalised people who just want something they can’t have.

Fightthepower · 01/07/2024 06:58

It’s essentially the Brexit campaign again. Use fear tactics. The Tory manifesto policies have sunk like a stone (anyone for national service?!) And they can’t get people to vote on their own track record because it’s diabolically bad. So the only thing they have left is to try and scare people that Labour would be even worse than them.

I just hope people get out there on Thursday, remember their ID and vote them out!

Ednasharples · 01/07/2024 07:14

KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 01/07/2024 06:52

I’m surprised by what looks to me like naivety, looking to labour for rescue from the way the world currently is. It’s as though there’s a narrative that Covid, the financial crash, the suez (or was it panama) being blocked, Ukraine, Gaza… all that would somehow not have happened if only we’d had labour in charge. Rich people do tend to get richer- it’s kind of what money does when there’s enough of it. That’s why people like having it.

We’ve lived through turbulent times, and there is no counterfactual. All the pontificating is with hindsight. It’s like blaming your parents for moving house after a house fire.

I didn’t vote this lot in. I didn’t vote for Brexit. I don’t believe in Father Christmas and don’t think Labour will wipe all the tears away. I do think they will shaft women in their rush to be Santa to all those poor marginalised people who just want something they can’t have.

Nice.
@RubySloth well yes so why all the end of days fear-mongering about Labour ?
No one on here will change anyone’s mind, agree with you on that. It’s all pointless. I’m criticising the gas lighting done by the government if anything.

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RedToothBrush · 01/07/2024 07:20

RubySloth · 01/07/2024 06:41

Can't believe how many threads are bashing anything considered right. We don't have threads about Green/ lib dems.

I find these threads pointless, no-one is going to sit at the ballotbox and day, MN has really changed my mind. Infact the more hate and animosity I see the more, I want to vote for these parties.

It's down to everyone's experience, so why are you telling people, how they should think, they aren't stupid and know how the last amount of years have affected them good or bad. Everyone will vote for there own agenda and no amount of piles on will stop people voting for what they feel is best for them.

I can assure you there are plenty threads on MN about the appalling state of the greens and the LDs.

The LDs and Green are getting hardly any airtime or newspaper coverage. It's why Ed Davey has been doing silly stunts to effectively go 'hello look at me'. Which is fucking terrible.

But at the same time it suits the LDs in a sense because they also can push popularist policies to their target market but dodge the accountability aspect of their more dubious ideas.

Ednasharples · 01/07/2024 07:26

Meadowtrees · 01/07/2024 05:40

I’m worried a bout Labour getting in. I don’t trust them on a range of issues.

We’ve faced some awful times recently many beyond any governments control - pandemic, Ukrainiane, fuel prices, inflation, Brexit - the tories didn’t want it (the pm Cameron was a remainder, Corbyn was neutral) but had to deliver it (which was always going to be a bad deal). I look around the western world and see all countries facing the same challenges. I don’t subscribe to British exceptionalism which these days leads people to think that things are uniquely bad here.

I don’t trust Labour to protect women. I think lowering the voting age to 16 is deeply cynical and ill advised (I have met 16 year olds!). I don’t like it he sneering, class war aspect of Labour and the desire to level down. They are anti-aspiration.

none of this is praise of the tories, just why I dislike Labour.

I am a normal person, not a bot before anyone accuses me of such. (Everyone posting a criticism of Labour is accused of somehow lying, it’s all part of the arrogance and self-righteousness)

See it’s this complete rewriting of history I don’t get. The ERG ran the party, Sunak was an ardent brexiteer. They very much were the authors of Brexit. This is on them. Pure gaslighting.

And the vast majority of people do think the UK is in a mess. You need to get out a bit more and live the reality. So flipping patronising.

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Ednasharples · 01/07/2024 07:30

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2024 05:45

This.

People have short memories too.

Why was austerity decided as necessary? Was it because of financial mismanagement of the country? Did a Labour minister leave a note saying 'theres no money left?'

It begs a lot of questions.

But not only that the Conservatives and Labour don't appear to be economically worlds apart in their manifesto. Where they differ more is on social issues.

My problem is I don't trust either.

You’re politically astute enough to know about the note left by the outgoing chancellor. Why lie ?
You surely know about the global economic downturn, misselling of US mortgages etc. I’m sure you were aware that Alistair Darling was actually turning the economy around before Osborne implemented a purely ideological austerity, criticised by the majority of economists.

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BIossomtoes · 01/07/2024 07:36

Ednasharples · 01/07/2024 07:30

You’re politically astute enough to know about the note left by the outgoing chancellor. Why lie ?
You surely know about the global economic downturn, misselling of US mortgages etc. I’m sure you were aware that Alistair Darling was actually turning the economy around before Osborne implemented a purely ideological austerity, criticised by the majority of economists.

This. As you say, it’s gaslighting.

Fightthepower · 01/07/2024 07:37

Meadowtrees · 01/07/2024 05:40

I’m worried a bout Labour getting in. I don’t trust them on a range of issues.

We’ve faced some awful times recently many beyond any governments control - pandemic, Ukrainiane, fuel prices, inflation, Brexit - the tories didn’t want it (the pm Cameron was a remainder, Corbyn was neutral) but had to deliver it (which was always going to be a bad deal). I look around the western world and see all countries facing the same challenges. I don’t subscribe to British exceptionalism which these days leads people to think that things are uniquely bad here.

I don’t trust Labour to protect women. I think lowering the voting age to 16 is deeply cynical and ill advised (I have met 16 year olds!). I don’t like it he sneering, class war aspect of Labour and the desire to level down. They are anti-aspiration.

none of this is praise of the tories, just why I dislike Labour.

I am a normal person, not a bot before anyone accuses me of such. (Everyone posting a criticism of Labour is accused of somehow lying, it’s all part of the arrogance and self-righteousness)

Awful times agreed but can you honestly say you were happy with how Johnson & co handled the pandemic? The obscene amounts of money on contracts to Tory contacts. The parties when funerals went unattended?
Brexit - Cameron provided the referendum to appease the right wing of the Tory party. He then left his party to ‘deliver’ Brexit which gave tears of in-fighting, poor deals and for no tangible benefit. As a business owner the additional red tape and cost to import into and from the EU ( our nearest neighbours to trade with!) has been damaging to our business. It’s allowed crackpot scheme like Rwanda to ‘deal’ with illegal immigration but really who thinks this is a proper workable solution?

I don’t think it’s uniquely bad here but the deterioration of the NHS and state school funding and allowing more sewage to be dumped in rivers and seas IS directly down to Tory policies

Why would Labour MPs who are women really allow our own rights to be eroded?
16 year olds can live independently, serve in the forces, prioritise the environment why shouldn’t they be allowed to vote about the future? There may be some immaturity but let’s face it there’s plenty in the adult population who aren’t exactly considered thinkers.

‘Level down’ by Labour? Well levelling up under the Tories hasn’t happened. There are more children in poverty and more working families having to use food banks. This is hardly allowing people to flourish is it? Please explain how Labour are ‘anti-aspiration’?

So if you haven’t praised Tory governance & you don’t like Labour presume you will be voting for another party @Meadowtrees? Which policies of theirs do you prefer to Labour/Conservatives?

keffie12 · 01/07/2024 07:42

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2024 05:45

This.

People have short memories too.

Why was austerity decided as necessary? Was it because of financial mismanagement of the country? Did a Labour minister leave a note saying 'theres no money left?'

It begs a lot of questions.

But not only that the Conservatives and Labour don't appear to be economically worlds apart in their manifesto. Where they differ more is on social issues.

My problem is I don't trust either.

The part of the note I can't believe is still being used. It's been a standing joke note left by every government when they leave office since WW2.

The government decided to weaponise it and eventually had to admit that what they said was a lie

www.newstatesman.com/politics/commons-confidential/2023/07/liam-byrne-labour-apology-no-money-note

MrsElijahMikaelson1 · 01/07/2024 07:45

Oldfatandfrumpy · 30/06/2024 19:01

A lot of people will be voting Labour, not because they want Labour but because they just want the Tories out

The Tories have made a huge mess the last 14 years and Labour are basically shooting at an open goal. Yet the best people can say about them is that they aren't the Conservatives, not that they have great policies or were great in opposition and could show good Leadership, just that they aren't the Tories.

What a stunning indictment on them (and the whole system). Frankly even when they win they should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for being voted in as the least shitty option out of a giant steaming pile of shit

Absolutely this.

I suppose my only concern would be if Labour get this “super majority” being bandied about, that they in essence will have no opposition to put the breaks on any nonsense such as protecting women’s spaces etc. and can do what the fuck they like, when their manifesto looks like it was written on a paper napkin at the greasy spoon round the corner from the House of Commons.

Spacecrispsnack · 01/07/2024 07:45

I can’t believe so many people are so critical of what I see as a highly competent , intelligent, pragmatic leader who’s been hugely succesful outside politics (Keir Starmer). I almost feel like the British people don’t deserve him. And don’t get me started on the nasty left.

unsync · 01/07/2024 07:48

Because i am old enough to have seen it all before. Doesn't mean I support what is currently happening, just that I know what's coming next.

I am now jaded and cynical, having once been optimistic. I don't even hope to be proven wrong anymore. Things don't get fixed by a change in Government, sticking plasters are applied over a broken system, which then breaks a bit more in unforeseen and unintended ways.

Notonthestairs · 01/07/2024 07:49

Austerity was a political choice that cut too deep and went on for far too long. The Conservatives cut at a time when borrowing was cheap. We should have been investing in public services - investing in prisons, the police, libraries, youth clubs, road, medical equipment. Funding for police forces fell by a quarter! The budgets for repairs to school & NHS buildings fell. Child poverty rose. 43% of courts closed. We didnt build prisons but the prison polulation rose - so that now our prisons are full. Courts will be at a standstill. Offenders will be let out early. They kicked the can down the road - and now those problems are significantly increased.

Austerity gave birth to Brexit - egged on by the ERG as well as Farage.
Its a shame that the Conservatives (the party and right wing media) wont reflect on their own part in feeding their lines to Farage and Reform. Because we will need them to consider their role when they make choices over the next few years too.

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/04/01/what-have-fourteen-years-of-conservative-rule-done-to-britain

BIossomtoes · 01/07/2024 07:52

MrsElijahMikaelson1 · 01/07/2024 07:45

Absolutely this.

I suppose my only concern would be if Labour get this “super majority” being bandied about, that they in essence will have no opposition to put the breaks on any nonsense such as protecting women’s spaces etc. and can do what the fuck they like, when their manifesto looks like it was written on a paper napkin at the greasy spoon round the corner from the House of Commons.

Oh for goodness sake let’s keep it real. The Labour manifesto at least bears some relationship to reality. The Greens, Libdems and Reforms manifestos are works of economic fantasy and the Conservative one isn’t much better. I think we can be sure that whatever a Labour government might do it won’t be illegally proroguing parliament or changing the law to send asylum seekers off to Rwanda. I don’t remember either of those appearing in a manifesto.

Meadowtrees · 01/07/2024 07:55

Fight - I’m very unimpressed by the tories too, but overall I’m more concerned about Labour. The only reason they haven’t had any scandals recently is because they’ve need out of office. I can’t bring myself to vote Labour because of self ID though.

CassieMaddox · 01/07/2024 07:57

Redpaisley · 01/07/2024 01:09

YANBU. It's like people have forgotten how much mess Tories has caused. Sunak is suddenly knight in shining armour for the women in th UK when all this time he did nothing.

It's even worse than that! The Tories did nothing, and they are proposing to do nothing in future. Yet somehow have done a great job of brainwashing people that "they know what a woman is".

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2024 08:02

BIossomtoes · 01/07/2024 06:52

Really? Wrecked by Labour? The global financial crisis that started in the US passed you by? Look what they did when they inherited a “wrecked economy”.

Labours policy to tackle the 2008 crisis would have been to 'spend our way out of it' and they criticised the Tories for not spending more. So I find it hard to get my head around a lot of the sainted thoughts that Labour would have done better.

The UK is largely following a pattern that is replicated across the western world. There are differences but there are more similarities. One of the key issues is our population demographics within Europe. We have an aging population and we didn't account for this properly decades ago. The Boomer generation will be net beneficiaries of taxation over the course of their lifetime whilst this switches and gets worse the younger you get. There's your ultimate issue.

Our aging demographic has massive implications. We didn't calculate for people living longer so pensions need to be paid for longer. We didn't calculate for more people needing social care due to their age. We didn't calculate for the increasing costs of health care with advances in health meaning people live longer but have more complex and expensive health needs. We didn't calculate for how paying for this by placing the burden on the working age population would lead to longer working hours and greater demands on women. This has had an impact on the birth rate. It's had implications for parental involvement with children. It's had an impact on demand for immigration and cheap labour. This goes way back. Probably prior to Thatcher.

This has been compounded with pressure on housing stock. We've not replaced housing when it was needed and we've tried to build the wrong things in the wrong places. That's not helped matters. This isn't to say there aren't places to build. The assumption is for green field sites. The thing is with the death of the high street we have far too much retail space. Much retail space has been converted to food establishments too. So we have convenience food on every corner but no housing. Everything manufactured is outsourced to cheap labour abroad which makes us politically and economically more vulnerable. Eateries are work but they are antisocial hours work. The percentage of 9 to 5 jobs out there has shrunk.

This is leading to a rose tinted view of the past. It's adding fuel to the ideal of American lead Christian right values, the rise of Andrew Tate and racist views.

The west reflects historical patterns of empire growth, heyday and decline. We are in a period of decline due to mismanagement and an inability to plan well for the future. 5 year election terms actually don't particularly help with that either especially when you start to see political polarisation. It just accelerates the process.

Do I think we'd have been better under Labour in the face of this? Not really. The attitude of the 'theres no money left' note sums up how running things was ultimately seen as a game where you play for the next five years until you lose then it swaps with the other party. There's no accountability in that.

And the public haven't helped. They voted against tax rises and parties didn't propose pension increases decades ago because they weren't vote winners. The best example of this was May's 'dementia tax' and the reaction to it. Ultimately it was the right thing to do to better fund social care and make for a fair system but it bombed on the doorstep.

Because the general population lacks good understanding of key issues we won't vote for policies in our country's best interests. We have got to a state where most people vote based on the theory of 'the least worst option' not because we see any party as credible, good at management and have a good grasp of the problems and crisis we are likely to face. We've lurched from one crisis to another in recent years - these crisis have been worse because of our social fabric and infrastructure aging and no longer really fit for purpose. Those who do vote in a more optimistic and positive fashion tend to be younger and dare I say it more naive and less jaded by the bullshit of politics.

Ive recently talked to two people in their fourties who have previously stood for parliament and are passionate about politics. Neither has bothered to watch the parliamentary debates and both have totally tuned out of the election this time around. They stood for different parties. Both are generally more left than right leaning. Neither know who they will vote for. Neither would stand again. Both hate politicians. That's your indicator of just how bad and disillusioned with politics people are - when those passionate to that degree check out mentality and feel that hope is essentially lost and all trust has evaporated.

And that's why this is a dangerous period politically for the UK. We have five years. Like Biden had five years and just totally didn't get or address the chronic political corruption and insanity - not with the Republicans but from his own party and indeed his own aging self. The warnings have been there throughout. They haven't been heeded.

Tbh I think Labour will ignore them and will be caught out by a rising tide of far right support amongst the young. There's warning signs there. And too much hope being misplaced on certain issues which when they meet the test of reality with implode with unintended consequences.

Yep this post is cheery. I ultimately don't give two shits how people vote. I don't think it makes a great deal of difference this time around all things considered. I think it makes a much bigger longer term difference though if we aren't critical of the incoming government. What I want is for the next government to be held to account and to stop ignoring issues when they don't align and match with their ideological agenda. I want them dealt with and not left to fester to give ammunition to the far right.

BIossomtoes · 01/07/2024 08:12

Labours policy to tackle the 2008 crisis would have been to 'spend our way out of it'

More gaslighting. Many economists, however, recommended exactly that. And austerity was such a roaring success.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-margaret-thatcher

Ednasharples · 01/07/2024 08:14

Thing is we know that the media will immediately start attacking a Labour government. It’s a given. They will not have any kind of honeymoon period I’m certain. Every single attempt at positive change will be countered by the press, nimbys etc
The fact that your politically engaged friends don’t know who to vote for is odd and that they ‘hate’ politicians..most of the corruption, dishonesty has been from mainly right wing parties whether it be Reform or the Conservatives. They are partially to blame for the cynicism and disengagement. Levelling up anyone ? Absolute lies.

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Notonthestairs · 01/07/2024 08:17

Whilst I can agree with some elements of that post I note that the Conservatives seem to be able to walk away without carrying any of the responsibility for the impact of Austerity and amplifiying Farages messages for him. Their endless internal jockeying has undoubted contributed to the state of politics now.

And the choices the Conservative party make now also matter - if they want to lead a responsible forward thinking opposition (asuming polls are correct blah blah).

And investing in infrastructure, be that CT scanners, school buildings or transport, should never have been shelved for as long as it has been.

You can't starve public resources, watching as public services bend under the strain and then wonder why there is public anger and lack of engagement in politics.

verdantverdure · 01/07/2024 08:29

Everyone can see the result of 14 years of Conservative Government in the U.K.

More British people homeless
More British children in poverty
More British people suffering on an NHS waiting list
More British people having to ask to use a food bank
Highest tax burden in 70 years
Higher rents
Higher mortgages
Higher energy bills
Reduced living standards
Reduced life expectancy
Shorter children

No economic growth
Crumbling schools and hospitals.
Roads trains and buses all a shit show.
Not enough teachers, dentists, doctors, nurses, vets, care workers, chefs, farm workers, builders,
Human shit in our rivers,
Cancer-causing bee-killing banned
neonicotinoids back
Nothing works because of under investment.

Conservatism has been exposed

So all they’ve got left is to mount a hysterical “Project Fear” type campaign.

Be nice to them this week while they’ve lost their manners, their self control and their sense of perspective.

But vote them out.