So uni fees are going to increase?

[nearlylovemyusername]

University sector calls on Labour to raise tuition fees to ‘stabilise the ship’ (ft.com)

Given paywall, the essence it this:

"One former university vice-chancellor said the fact that Labour had acknowledged the sector was “in crisis” indicated that Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer and Phillipson, who have not ruled out a tuition fee increase, were likely to act.

“The short-term pain of putting up fees could be blamed on the Tory inheritance . . . and then traded against a transition to a better deal for young people, which Labour can deliver before next general election,” he said."

So it won't be limited by VAT on PS, uni fees will be up, potentially significantly and repayments for higher earning grads will go up much more - this is what artical says.

Yes, I remember the days of getting housing and unemployment benefit, lifesavers in the Christmas and Easter vacations. I used to spend the summer working two jobs to pay off my overdraft. Most people I knew who didn’t get a full grant worked to supplement their grant. I’m still friends with a group of fellow students and none of us would have taken on the level of debt necessary now.

Poor kids! When I was young uni was free, you could get a mortgage on one wage, get a council house easier, get a doctors appointment quicker and have a nhs dentist.

Now mortgages are sky high, house prices are extortionate, uni fees are going up even more and the price of everything is ridiculous. I’m early 40’s and I feel lucky compared to the younger generation these days.

“Kids who are involved in rowing are almost all middle class.“

No - this kind of statement is just very lazy. There are a ton of working class kids who are very sporty and where there is a will, there is a way. We have plenty of pop in gyms with rowing machines to practise. Where I live our local music trust has been working very closely with primary schools to identify gifted kids with a good ear from an early age to then offer them free choirs and music lessons and free hire instruments in schools. It is working. Some parents will resist, but typically many are supportive if the school is. We also have programmes for eg gifted diving development etc etc there is all sorts. Typically, some London poorer immigrant parents are totally up for it! Give them the options, let them know what is out there and a lot of them will actually take it. This is why immigrant kids are overtaking British born kids who are being told to stay in their class boxes. You need to get out of that kind of thinking and embrace aspiration.

It's not very lazy, its a truth.

Rowing clubs cost money to join and trainings require extensive amounts of pick ups and drop offs at different times. Being able to get into a high performing school because of your rowing prowess is not a way of encouraging working class children.

" There are a ton of working class kids who are very sporty and where there is a will, there is a way"

Have you ever considered why the only sports in which private schools are not massively over represented are the ones where you don't need specialist equipment etc to do? Private schools are massively under represented in football for example.

" Where I live our local music trust has been working very closely with primary schools to identify gifted kids with a good ear from an early age to then offer them free choirs and music lessons and free hire instruments in schools."

Anecdata.

"This is why immigrant kids are overtaking British born kids who are being told to stay in their class boxes. You need to get out of that kind of thinking and embrace aspiration."

Actually, immigrant children are significantly more likely to live in London which has benefitted from the London challenge and has larger proximity to economic opportunities than elsewhere. This makes a BIG difference to the data, as so do white working class ( actually white children on FSM) children.

Its also a very poor sweeping generalisation, children from migrant backgrounds outside of London don't all flourish.

Stop pretending that programs designed to benefit the middle classes are designed to benefit the working class.

The stuff about "aspiration" is also guff.

@FeetLing - tuition fees were introduced in 1998, 1000 pounds initially so you must be mid 40s or were you a child genius? Then during those years they scrapped the caps on accommodation as well and it all got progressively worse for students.

I doubt England will ever fully fund uni tuition fees again. That ship has truly sailed. Therefore, the emphasis has to be on helping students make sure that the courses and unis they pick really do make financial sense for them and play to their aptitudes and that unis are held to account on quality of provision as well. As for letting them charge whatever they want or charging differently for different courses like they do with international students, that is up for debate. Science type degrees are arguably better value for the students, may lead to higher wages, cost the unis more as well.

“Stop pretending that programs designed to benefit the middle classes are designed to benefit the working class.“

For God sake, you can throw that argument at Sure Start as well. These kind of programmes are not designed for the middle classes! Full stop! Initially the middle classes tend to have first mover advantage, but then everyone benefits!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_public_school_football_games#:~:text=During%20the%20early%20modern%20era,and%20rugby%20football%20(1845).

Football was originally a public school game!

Again, this lazy class nonsense rugby for gentlemen, football for hooligans is all quickly becoming very outdated.

I was at University in the early seventies. Tuition fees were paid by your local authority ( not central government) . There were fewer places, at fewer Universities, so it was highly competitive. The most academically able received the supported places ( and if you failed your mid course exams or otherwise misbehaved, you were sent down. ).

However, thé supported fees were means tested, so very well off parents could end up paying the full amount. I had a friend whose extremely affluent ( and aristocratic) parent had paid the full fees for all five of their children.

Maintenence was paid and calculated separately, and the threshold was lower, my middle class parents paid a good whack towards my college maintenance fees ( we had to live in for two of the three years).

@titchy
Tories didn't cap student loans to rate of inflation levels. From
Moneysaingexpert:


But as the RPI reached 13.5% in March 2023, the Government decided to cap the interest rate for all students and graduates, and review it each month. As of April 2024, it stands at 7.8%. This rate is higher than many mortgages, and far higher than for students from prior cohorts.

www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/repay-post-2012-student-loan/#:~:text=But%20as%20the%20RPI%20reached,for%20students%20from%20prior%20cohorts.

“But as the RPI reached 13.5% in March 2023, the Government decided to cap the interest rate for all students and graduates, and review it each month. As of April 2024, it stands at 7.8%. This rate is higher than many mortgages, and far higher than for students from prior cohorts.“

And those kids got incredibly unlucky and their loans will be far higher than others due to that huge bout of inflation, entirely beyond their control. The interest should be capped at 4% max in my opinion. It is so unfair on that cohort, not least because they also had Covid to contend with.

Those that throw that argument at sure start don't know what they are talking about.

However, entrance to a high performing secondary in Year 9 due to your rowing skills is in the vast majority going to benefit middle class kids, not working class.

"Football was originally a public school game!"

So what?

It really, really isn't now. Private schools are under represented because you can't buy advantage in football.

It used to be the same in pop music but is changing.

“It really, really isn't now. Private schools are under represented because you can't buy advantage in football.“

I am really not sure what you are on about. DS has plenty of friends who played academy football, ranging from working class to proper upper middle and all of those kids had very dedicated parents who spent a lot fostering their DCs passion in the early years, ferrying them about etc etc.
I am really not sure what schools have to do with any of this.
From my own personal experience, it is usually mostly down to the parents, not the schools.

Right, former student of private schools dominate the numbers that are playing competitive sport in athletics, rugby, cricket, rowing, sailing etc etc

This is mainly down to a range factors 1) The need for specialist equipment which is expensive, 2) the locations of the private clubs for these sports tending to be in middle class areas. 3) travelling to compete in them is expensive. 4) once a child is excelling at certain sports some private schools offer scholarships.

Football, doesn't require expensive equipment or large amounts of space, the competitive level boys clubs are relatively cheap and there is lots of local competition with talented boys getting picked up by proper academies that pay for everything ( not this JPL stuff which parents pay for). Therefore the advantages given by private school/well off parents, are not needed.

You'd barely be able to put together a Premier league XI of football players who went to private school, and so they are under represented.

“Right, former student of private schools dominate the numbers that are playing competitive sport in athletics, rugby, cricket, rowing, sailing etc etc“

So you agree now that we do need state schools to encourage sports like Rowing?

Anyway @Alladinzane - you stated you live in London too and that you teach in a private school.

Here in London, 41% of the population is born abroad. Depending on what figures you look at. All this British class nonsense - many of us are just not interested! Here things that count are hard work and aspiration. We recognise that Covid is a massive set back and catch up is required. We hope the young and hopeful will be OK! Not interested in some old dogma about a few hundred kids in private schools. In London, most kids in private schools are internationals anyway.

Sigh.

No. Because Rowing is expensive and needs significant special equipment. We should invest more in sport and music in general in schools. But we should first be investing in education in state schools, not the extra curriculars, I'd prefer kids to be able to have a specialist teacher than have the opportunity to do rowing.

I also don't think we should see sports like rowing as "aspirational".

" Here things that count are hard work and aspiration."

Not according to social mobility statistics.

". In London, most kids in private schools are internationals anyway."

They really aren't.

Tories didn't cap student loans to rate of inflation levels.

Yes they did - plan 5 loans, introduced this current academic year, have interest = inflation.

@Alladinzane - what is your definition of “international’?

For me, it means at least one parent born abroad and includes BAME. Therefore, essentially includes family abroad and opportunity abroad potentially and international mobility.

If your definition is “has a British passport” too, then clearly we are talking at cross purposes.

My friend was captain of football at Eton. Who cares who plays what? GB Rowing went on a massive plundering spree from other sports. Plus: Who the hell owns their boats? You can join a club if you want to. My neighbours dc did at uni. A former poly. He just went to the local secondary and had never rowed in his life. Just rolled up and had a go. Fairly ordinary schools have rowing teams. Being nearby to a river helps. Sir Steve Redgrave rowed for Great Marlow School. A secondary modern.

Im all for aiming high. The reason sports players come from private schools is because they give sports scholarships and bursaries. Cricket is hardly played in state schools. Private schools pick up the players from local clubs. Ditto rugby. If dc want to have a go at most sports they can. The British Racing School will teach you to ride a racehorse if you show some aptitude and you fancy it.

@Aladdinzane

"Football, doesn't require expensive equipment or large amounts of space, the competitive level boys clubs are relatively cheap and there is lots of local competition with talented boys getting picked up by proper academies that pay for everything"

How in anyway is rugby different to this?

I really think all this class trope is massively outdated. Since the early 90s so many immigrants and internationals have arrived and it continues. All these old class wars middle aged politicians are still fighting are holding us back! At the end of the day, we just need all young people to recover from the Covid years, have a get up and go spirit and start working and bettering themselves in whatever way possible and start paying taxes too. The constant negativity in the press as well really does not help anyone. Feeling thankful the football is on and then Olympics for the young, as politics etc just far too depressing. All as bad as each other really. None of them can get the country organised in an efficient way, it is really very disappointing.

Where I live we have a ton of cricket, lots of Indian families, definitely not “upper middle class”, far from it. Our state primary is doing well at Lacrosse! Some people really need to get over themselves and stop hankering for a bygone class era. It is all so much more dynamic these days, if you want it to be.
I have told my DC they can live at home if they have to, forever or I will build a temporary structure in the garden for them too. They just need some security at this point. I am resigned to the fact that multi generational living will have to become a thing again. We shall adapt. There is far worse going on in other countries and we should be grateful for what we do have, I feel.

You can play 1v1 football pretty much anywhere. On concrete, grass, small spaces, big spaces etc. You can even train against yourself as long as there's a wall to kick the ball off.

For rugby you need at least a few people on each side and a lot of room. And you really don't want to play it on concrete.

Rugby can't be played in the street or inside really, so you need to have access to playing fields. You also can't really develop rugby skills playing alone or in numbers smaller than it would to make a team. It's isn't played in the school yard and therefore to get into it you have to be taken by parents to lessons outside of school, which costs money.