So uni fees are going to increase?

[nearlylovemyusername]

University sector calls on Labour to raise tuition fees to ‘stabilise the ship’ (ft.com)

Given paywall, the essence it this:

"One former university vice-chancellor said the fact that Labour had acknowledged the sector was “in crisis” indicated that Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer and Phillipson, who have not ruled out a tuition fee increase, were likely to act.

“The short-term pain of putting up fees could be blamed on the Tory inheritance . . . and then traded against a transition to a better deal for young people, which Labour can deliver before next general election,” he said."

So it won't be limited by VAT on PS, uni fees will be up, potentially significantly and repayments for higher earning grads will go up much more - this is what artical says.

That isn't a scholarship for Rowing, that's a rowing club at the school.

Mossbourne is another of those schools allowed carte Blanche because its a favourite of the Tory DofE.

It also strikes me that this "competition" thing is a bit of a bust, when the school I mentioned before only takes 25% of its own Y11 into 6th form it means that they aren't being that competitive, they are sucking up good students from other schools by pumping money that should be spent on younger years on the 6th form.

There was a grammar local to my former school, very selective. We lost the top 10-15% of GCSE students to them each year. What I noted in results is that OUR A level students who needed a bit more from teachers/6th form achieved higher grades than the ones who went there. They didn't need to put as much effort in as their A-A and A-B statistics would look good anyway.

In fact it is interesting. A lot of the successful comps with outstanding extra curricular seemed to have developed strong partnerships with private schools. Surely that is only going to be a good thing?

Let me tell you that when DD was at grammar we were specifically told she should do less extra curricular and more study. She still achieved top grades, because I ignored them. UK state schools need to get broader again to compete. This entire focus on just Maths and English and top grades at the expense of sports and wider interests is actively harming children. Perhaps to some extent our elite unis are actually to blame because they expect 18 year olds to be experts in their fields? When most other countries including the US do the opposite?

Is the early specialisation actually harming us as a whole? It’s all grades grades etc etc - the kids are not coping well overall and employers are complaining. Social & emotional and physical development are extremely important in the earlier years and 11-14 year olds need to get plenty of exercise too to develop properly both physically and emotionally.
I don’t think our state schools are doing well in that regard. More has to be done. It’s a health crisis we are seeing so more PE and sporting opportunities are really important.

@Araminta1003 So what you meant to post but for some reason didn’t quite word as intended was more along the lines of:

international fees for most courses at a small number of elite universities in the UK are £40k plus per year

a likely quite reasonable statement

Average international fees across all universities are however some way from that figure.

https://www.mca.mossbourne.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/MCA-2024-25-Admission-Arrangements-.pdf

Up to 20 in Year 9 for rowing aptitude.

Yes @boys3 - but the international students will need to budget GBP 40k ish to include living costs, flights in any event and most will have to have savings in hard currencies already to manage currency risk. And given many are coming from poorer countries, clearly we are talking very elite primarily.

@alladinzane “There was a grammar local to my former school, very selective. We lost the top 10-15% of GCSE students to them each year. What I noted in results is that OUR A level students who needed a bit more from teachers/6th form achieved higher grades than the ones who went there. They didn't need to put as much effort in as their A-A and A-B statistics would look good anyway.”

It is not all about grades! Plenty of top state schools at least try and do a wider curriculum because they can, they can take the grades for granted. They can try and focus more widely on uni preparation and extra curricular, just like some private schools! That is the whole bloody point of be selective. Bright kids do not just want straight A stars, they want a wider and more interesting experience and they deserve it, whatever their background.

They may well do. However your original statement referenced international fees. Not unreasonably I interpreted that as tuition fees.

Start to add on living and other costs and I see how you get towards the number you quoted. Although whereas tuition fees are a very precise and quantified number, total costs are much more of a ballpark guestimate.

though if the general gist of the argument is that it’s not cheap then that is more than reasonable.

interestingly in terms of overall international student numbers Cambridge doesn’t even make the top 20, and Oxford only just scrapes in. However in that top 20 you would find Hertfordshire, Coventry, Greenwich, Ulster, Northumbria, Teeside and East London unis. Whether they will still be there when this year or 24-25 academic year data gets released I’m not so sure.

Still not a scholarship.

It is all about grades.

Extra curriculars count for the states but the academics have to be top unless you are legacy/deans list etc.

Extra curriculars don't count for selective UK universities either.

Those bright kids wouldn't have got near the selective schools without top grades either.

You really are making this a narrative of your own.

You are nitpicking @alladinzane and you must have enough self awareness to know it!

Aptitude is the nomenclature- it’s a ticket in. The same for the music aptitude tests now rife across many top state schools. If they come with financial backing to support those aptitudes then why can’t we call a spade a space? It’s a scholarship,

Also the US still expect top grades.

They also expect significant involvement in sport, arts, volunteering, school life.

Which is why they are massively favouring the upper socio economic groupings.

"Aptitude is the nomenclature- it’s a ticket in."

It's a way of the school boosting its GCSE grades. Kids who are involved in rowing are almost all middle class.

Extra curriculars won’t get you into Oxbridge but they may well help your discipline and wider skills in the work place later on. Most of my trainees absolutely excelled extra curricularly in one way or another. And we can define that broadly to include chess, maths and science competitions as well as debating, music, drama, sports, anything really.

"And we can define that broadly to include chess, maths and science competitions as well as debating, music, drama, sports, anything really."

Which means you broadly favour the middle classes who have access to this stuff is all.

I should have made clear that the final para of my 12:04 post was in reference to Postgrad numbers.

"Aptitude is the nomenclature- it’s a ticket in."

It's a way of the school boosting its GCSE grades. Kids who are involved in rowing are almost all middle class.

These schemes always start like that until word spreads and poorer but fully funded kids are put forward too. Obviously the middle classes get their info first, but that does not mean we should not be having these schemes!

@boys3 - I should have been more specific about GBP 40k a year. I got the figure from a reputable international student recruitment advisor webpage. It also stated that those international students have to be able to prove their have the funds for the full time they will be studying in the UK?!

Kids who are involved in rowing prior to going to the school either need to have got involved in their own school ( which means a move is unlikely) or been private club members. Not many kids from deprived backgrounds there.

It's totally a way of boosting their GCSE performance, 20 extra middle class kids

And @alladinzane - when Oxbridge started widening state school participation, initially all the middle class leafy comp kids also got in there first. It is a process you have to go through. Same with widening participation into elite sports, arts, music and culture. It is a good thing, per se. So do not be so cynical. All children deserve opportunities. Even if there is first mover advantage, if other kids at Mossbourne see middle class kids rowing they might want to join too and then their siblings go in on the scheme, family friends, cousins etc - so it starts.

" when Oxbridge started widening state school participation, initially all the middle class leafy comp kids also got in there first."

Oxbridge started doing this in the 70s. The numbers attending from average comprehensives are still not high, although they are better.

. "Same with widening participation into elite sports, arts, music and culture."

You have to be rowing already to get in. This indicates a certain level of middle class, sorry, its not widening participation it's juking the stats.

". Even if there is first mover advantage, if other kids at Mossbourne see middle class kids rowing they might want to join too and then their siblings go in on the scheme, family friends, cousins etc - so it starts."

Mossbourne is already a high performing school without it, this merely allows it to boost the top end statistics more.

It's a direct result of Labour introducing tuition fees, Labour cutting funding to universities and Labour introducing the bat shit policy of 50% of people going to university. Before that if you were good enough and bright enough you could go to university and the cost was not an issue. We invested in our young people. I can still remember the sense of utter betrayal in the sector. Now we have young people with masses of debt and a degree has been devalued. I have no issue with Labour being challenged on this. Fully funded higher education is what we need. Fully funded apprenticeships. Fully funded on the job training. 50% of the population don't need a degree.

"It's a direct result of Labour introducing tuition fees, Labour cutting funding to universities and Labour introducing the bat shit policy of 50% of people going to university"

Labour didn't cut funding to universities, that happened under the Tories, the Tories trebled fees and 50% don't go to university.

If you repeat things that are untrue then it means that you can be easily dismissed.

"Before that if you were good enough and bright enough you could go to university and the cost was not an issue. "

It was always an issue because grants weren't enough to cover living costs from the early 80s onwards.

" Now we have young people with masses of debt and a degree has been devalued."

Graduates still out earn non graduates, and the number of occupations that require a degree as essential has increased.

"Fully funded apprenticeships. Fully funded on the job training. 50% of the population don't need a degree."

50% don't have a degree, it's 34%

Next.

Before that if you were good enough and bright enough you could go to university and the cost was not an issue.

It was always an issue because grants weren't enough to cover living costs from the early 80s onwards.

That isn’t true. I went to university as a mature student in the early 80s. I gave up a salary of £8k a year in exchange for a grant of £2.4k. It meant I was pretty poor for three years. Had a debt of £60k been involved there’s no way I’d have even contemplated it. As you say @Aladdinzane (and I generally agree with your posts) if you repeat things that are untrue then it means that you can be easily dismissed.

"I went to university as a mature student in the early 80s"

There's the difference, people who were young students going had parental income taken into account when applying for a grant from the early 80s onwards.

Just as now, this didn't mean that your parents could afford to support you.

I was diddled then! I went late 80s with a full grant which was only £700 a term. Housing benefit and holiday UB40 also removed from late 80s.

Most didn't get any sort of state maintenance in those days - it was expected that parents would support in full (and tax breaks given for those that did).