REFORM Party Questions.....

[Modernfamily2011]

Genuine question here, I do not want to start arguments but i'm honestly curious as to the hate for the Reform party....... I will be the first to admit that politics is absolutely not my strong point but this Election and for the last few months I have been doing a lot of research

I will not be voting Conservatives but Labour don't fill me with any confidence either, the Reform party Manifesto actually looks good, I would love the minimum income tax rate to be raised, Stamp Duty threshold to be higher, NHS change, energy bills to be lower etc

Am I just a little naïve and is this just a case of Farage talking nonsense? A bit like the Brexit debacle? Surely if these policies could have been implemented then they would have and where would the money come from? Farage is an excellent speaker and he knows how to play the public, there is no doubt about that

I would love some insight from those who know a little more about politics than me!

You said earlier that:
Labour seem to just shout about how awful the Tories have been without having any answers themselves

But now you say you have read Labour's manifesto. So you must be aware that it is not just pages and pages of shouting about how bad the Tories are.

Perhaps you just looked at the pictures?

No. You're assuming incorrectly. As per my link earlier those rights came from the EU. The Tories did not reverse the laws and rights gained via the EU.
It's Reform UK who are promising to take those benefits away from us.

I agree that the NHS can't carry on as it is. I'm pro-EU and would be happy with EU style system.

The fact remains that one of the advertised 'benefits' of voting Brexit would be a ton of funding for the NHS, and it was a lie.

And the fact is that Farage is a cunt.

[Edited to say the Daily Mail can quote me on this].

Yes @JassyRadlett I agree with all that. The problem is that Labour and tories manifestos are also pie in the sky (or lies in the case of the tories - I just heard Rishi say that tories have reduced taxes when they have taken them to the highest since 1945!). Think "the contract" says they will look at the different models in Europe haven't said which one, I've thought for years that's what they should do, but people seem to think the only alternative model is the US for some reason.

Also enjoying how they say they’re calling their manifesto a “contract” because they think manifesto = lies.

But their “contract” is not a contract. It is a lie to call it one.

Ahhhh I typed out a message and it deleted.

I'll start again. It's not about not understanding people think differently. I think given how diverse society is, it's a understood not everyone will think the same. It's more about understanding how and why people with differing POVs come to their conclusions. It's not a bad thing to try to understand it. It's how we learn from each other.

Not meaning to sound patronising, just giving my view.

I assumed they called it a contract because they know that very few people read contracts and all their small print.

I think you're wildly misrepresenting what I'm saying.

The very basis of what I'm saying is that I understand that others think differently to me. It is extraordinarily easy to understand that each of us will be driven by our own values and experiences to think and behave differently. It is harder to take the next step to try to understand why.

I'm curious to know more about what leads them to think and behave that way, largely driven be a desire to find common cause and common ground where it might seem there is none, or to challenge my own assumptions and ideas.

So take the Leader of the Opposition question. A lazy approach would be to say: "you think Farage would make a good LOTO; I think he'd be awful, clearly we think differently about this, leave it there."

Something that gets a bit closer to understanding is to try to understand what the other person is looking for in a LOTO that they feel Farage would fill well, challenging my own assumptions of what a good LOTO should be/do and trying to understand why someone else thinks as they do, rather than shrugging and accepting that they do.

😭😭😭

Farage is proposing a USA style healthcare system , not a European one.

This is a much more concise version of what I tried to say above!

I'm not much one for shrugging and saying "other people, eh? Weird."

I don't think people can complain with one breath about people being in their "bubbles" and "out of touch" and then in the next complain if people better try to understand others.

What is noticable in this thread an others is that there is an absence of posters trying to explain the wonderful things that Reform Ltd would do in government, as there was for Brexit and around cakegate too.

Yep, definitely should try to find common ground with people otherwise you just end up with black and white thinking and tribalism.

I am struggling to understand reform voters POVs though when they say they won't debate the topic, save for @Northernnature who is at least engaging. We may not agree but at least I can see some of what they would like to happen re NHS.

It doesn't matter. Everyone knows they won't be a government. The point is lots people want a change from the stale policies of Tory versus Labour.

I think all are optimistic and the Tories and Labour are definitely leaving out some of the incredibly tough decisions ahead that the Tories have baked into the forward fiscal plans. Labour is incredibly optimistic on the 2030 deadline for clean energy and has a lot riding on productivity and planning improvements. The Tories are double counting a lot of (already optimistic) savings that they had already counted in their existing forward spending plans. Whoever wins, the spending review in the autumn will be brutal.

But the Reform fiscal plans are on a whole other level of utter fantasy land, that makes Trussonomics look like a model of fiscal prudence.

Their energy plans are based on outright untruths - and when that happens I always do ask myself "who benefits?" The answer on the energy plans is quite a straightforward one, and it isn't bill payers.

Their NHS plans are going to end NHS staff shortages, deliver massively ambitious referral timeframes, all without relying on immigrants, and for a relatively modest price tag.

To me, this isn't a "they're all the same" thing. There is "I've made some optimistic assumptions but this is more or less doable" and then there's "these aren't real plans but I want this as a lobbying base if I can convince enough people they're credible, they certainly make for good soundbites."

( can't find anything in the Reform contract about looking at different models of funding, unless it's well outside the healthcare section. It may have been in the draft but dropped out as not particularly crowd-pleasing.)

I don't really get how it doesn't matter - if they think the Tory/Labour policies are stale, don't they want credible alternatives?

@IClaudine - is there a need to be rude? Posts like yours and a couple of others are the reason why people don’t post on here

My post seems to have attracted a lot of replies which i’m glad about as it has given loads of different views on the matter and clearly people are very passionate about this subject 🤣

Yes @JassyRadlett I can't find that in there about EU style health either, I think I must have heard it on the radio! Fact is people do expect more realism from Tories and Labour as they are the only ones who will make a govt atm. Farage has said that and wants to replace Tories in 2029 election. Greens and lib dems are also unrealistic. But Tories have actively lied in their manifestos particularly as regards mass immigration their previous supporters have been taken for fools (yes I know mumsnet think they are fools and so do I for believing the Tories but that is now mainstream).

@JassyRadlett I suppose it's a personal skill I take for granted, naturally looking at two sides and without someone spelling it out being able to be the devil's advocate seeing what is attractive about something I can't support.
. Eg I can understand the many reasons why Hitler gained support, from social political and all those influences going on.
It's easy to see that some would like x policy or some y and some go for p without thinking about x and y etc.

I can perfectly understand why some people vote Labour and tory and lib dem and all the rest, I don't need them to walk me through it.

For instance I have friends who will vote for all the parties and I know one in particular is a swing voter and the whole gender debate will not be on her radar at all.

She's got many other influences and interests.

I can't imagine in real life asking her to talk to me about this lack of interest in this issue.. She has interests in other areas which is important. We all have a drum to beat about something and that's critical to a functioning democracy.

He's a nasty person leading a nasty party that appeals to the nastier side of human nature. That's all you need to know really. Oh, and since he will never have to deliver on any of it he can promise any shit he likes, and it is all shit.

Good for you! You're not lacking in self-confidence. We seem to differ in whether we're more interested in the drum or the drummer.

I prefer to challenge my assumptions about why others think the way they do and, when actually having a political discussion, try to go a little deeper. Much of my work is in or adjacent to the consumer behaviour and behavioural economics field and I'm endlessly being surprised and having my preconceptions challenged.

I'm still madly curious about what the PP values in a good LOTO, for example. It's clearly very different from my view and I feel it's a perspective that I'd certainly find interesting, and potentially useful.

Fortunately Rish! is aiming to achieve that by destroying the Conservative party.

Reform Ltd in their "contract" say they want net zero unessential migration, which means they are happy with the current level of essential migration and expect it to remain in the order of 500-600,000 a year.

No one is calling anyone on this thread a racist. People are just pointing out that Reform are full of racist, misogynists that want to strip us of our rights. If you think the Tories are bad then you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

I apologise for being rude.

But seriously, you said that Labour only "shout about the Tories being awful". But you have read the Labour manifesto which obviously proves that they don't. So I wondered why you said that?

Farage is a very dangerous man. His "booze n' fags n' good old boy down the pub with the rest of the ordinary people" act is fooling a few voters, sadly. He cares nothing about them. He just wants to make money.