National Service if Tories are re-elected

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

Thoughts? 🍿

Obviously you're right about it not happening, but I'm not surprised at all. The fact that they've felt desperate enough to propose something so stupid is interesting in itself. As are some of the responses to it.

They used to do it in Germany until 2011

Either 1 year military or 1 year in e.g. old people's homes, hospital, animal welfare etc etc

I totally agree. Some sort of non military service for all 18 year olds would be a good idea and instil a sense of pride in them. However now is not the time to be starting the discussion. It needs to be thoroughly discussed by the public before any party puts it in a Manifesto.

The Tories' own supporters have already explained why this entire idea is bollocks - https://x.com/edwinhayward/status/1794497744804909562

@79Helene, I agree but I think a lot of people think coming for the young people as if they are all chaotic when they have been totally shafted by this government is pretty low. This generation have no positive messages about them whatsoever, but I teach them and I find them (mainly) great and interested but highly stressed about the future. That's our failure.

My son's currently in military service in Switzerland.

Like many of you, I was so very against it initially, but I now see the benefits for the individual and society. It works well here but I don't know if it would in the UK - as someone just wrote - it's just too chaotic and it wouldn't be well-funded and the military doesn't want it anyway.

Like most things in Switzerland, it is extremely well-organised, funded and and implemented. Most young men an initial 18 weeks of training (and go back for 2 - 3 weeks each year, for many years, which all employers accept), or they do a longer 300 days straight off. Both kinds can then be called up in a time of war.

There are so many different positions (180?) and young people can actually learn some great skills, free of charge that they use later in life or for their future careers. Driving, medical, logistics, machinery, IT, chef etc

Most are proud to serve their country, they get fit for the assessment days. Positions like sniper, military police, and special forces are popular and only the brightest, fittest will make those jobs. For many, getting in shape and being assessed to do the best jobs is a very masculine way to prove themselves. From what many of you are writing, this wouldn't be the case in the UK. Unlike their UK counterparts, Swiss kids grow up hearing about it from an early age, knowing what their fathers, uncles and grandfathers did, so they know from a young age that they will do it too.

Whilst undertaking service, recruits mix with all different kinds of people, they form future contacts, network and make friends for the future. It is a great leveler and one that makes the boys grow up and take responsibility.

It is paid at a basic salary rate and all costs are covered. They can be exempt for health reasons and many are. Doctors and medical boards decide on exemptions. Those who choose not to do it pay an additional 3% tax for many years. I didn't like this idea at first, but, on reflection, I think it's fair. They can also choose to do civil service instead but this takes longer.

My question is why they would want to deliberately sabotage their own campaign like this.

Erm well having lived next to what was once the biggest council estate in Europe I happen to know plenty of these families.

Because you can say any old shit when you're in the last few weeks of a job. He knows that, they know that. Might as well play to their moron peanut gallery. Up next death sentence for knife carrying black kids. Asylum seekers must clean 500 toilets. All people who put pronouns on their email must register with the local council. To be fair, I agree with the last one.

It is bollocks of course; but it is just the same ilk of policies like Rwanda. These sort of right wing masturbatory fantasies about ordering young people about should be seen for what they are. There is something depraved about the current Conservative Party in their overt cruelty and expressed desire to control and manipulate people. God knows who it appeals to

There are many things you can do in the modern army that probably wouldn’t disqualify you due to being older. You could volunteer to make uniforms, or as a cook for example.

There are multiple ways you can do your duty and make your grandad proud.

@WoshPank Oh I'm not surprised either, it's akin to some of their more outrageous attempts to stem immigration. It's nothing more than the Tories trying to pit young against old in a last ditch attempt to claw back the older vote, because they wrongly think most pensioners are in support of, or even did, national service. What I am surprised about though is how much attention it's being given and I just don't find it interesting at all in the wider scheme of social and economic issues the country is facing at the moment. I accept others do though (although here I am talking about it 😂)

My main objection to this is on intellectual grounds. Because this scheme, as set out, is just Rwanda all over again - huge amounts of money we can’t afford spent on an unworkable policy that won’t achieve anything but pleases people who like to mouth off down the pub.

There are some definite good ideas to be had on community service and the voluntary sector, and a huge amount to be done to get young people feeling invested and motivated. But none of them are in this policy. And a great way to make most young people feel even more marginalised by the political system.

Haha well that's just it isn't it? There's something quite irresistible about the discussions!

I think it's because, although the proposal itself is obviously ridiculous, it and the response feeds into a lot of wider and more interesting discussions. About electoral strategy, defence concerns, generational inequality and all sorts of things that are much more important than some daft back of an envelope shit from a PM who's unlikely to even be living on this continent by the end of the year.

What a nasty argument.

It really is.

Me saying if I was 18 I would like to do a year in the army, has resulted in me getting abuse. Why, I was talking about my personal choice. I didn't tell anyone else what they should do.

I also said and I repeat, that I don't think any 18 year old should have to do it. It is everyone's choice.

It's optional. Its their choice

So why is my personal choice for myself, annoying others. It is my choice is it not.

I said it is every 18 year olds choice what they do.

I don't live in the UK. I work full time and I also care for a sick elderly parent in another country.

I don't have time to go and serve in the UK army now.

If I was an 18 year old with no responsibilities. I would like to do it.

Again I'm speaking for myself. If no one else wants to that's their choice!

Be specific? You do realise I'm not in charge of implementing Tory policy, right? I imagine fines would do the trick. Otherwise they could do what the French do: citizens who refuse the Journée de Citoyenneté (a one-day jolly that currently passes for National Service) aren't entitled to go to university or get the Bac (A-Level equivalent) regardless of academic performance. I don't know what sanctions are available for those of a non-academic bent, but presumably those do or could apply.

I suppose you pay council tax. Is that because you really want to, or because there are draconian penalties for not doing so? Same applies to any government policy that people might need to be nudged into complying with.

So is this restricted to males? Why?

Why don't you do that?

Females can do it if they wish. Some do, but it's not many.

Switzerland (rightly in my mind) don't get involved in wars but profit greatly by not doing so and so get as rich a Croseus as a result. I seem to remember they have bomb proof shelters for the whole population as well. Smart people. Not a member of NATO either. https://thepanicroomcompany.com/2023/08/03/bbc-the-travel-show-switzerland-bunkers/

GS didn't have an issue with volunteering, for silver he worked in a charity shop and for gold his volunteering was in relation to a sport he does. Other kids in his group did similar things, some did coaching with younger children at their school when they had free periods or in after school activities or helping the DofE leader with younger groups e.g. someone doing Gold assisting with bronze. In fact GSs biggest issue was deciding which volunteering option to take.

I used to be a leader with Beavers and Cubs and we certainly welcomed 18 year old volunteers, clearing up at the end of sessions didn't take much training.

It is such a shame your children missed out, didn't school or their youth organisation offer any help?

If volunteering is such an issue with DofE then heaven help us if this scheme gets off the ground.

@caffelatte100 your post is inspiring but alas the youth in the UK unfortunately just don’t have the same mindset, posters can defend them all they want but it’s the the truth.

Someone - Cleverly? - claimed it wasn't a new idea and actually they've been working on it for some time. But, given that a substantial element of the party has been working on bringing Sunak down for some time, you have to wonder if there is a correlation there.

Or perhaps the explanation is that they've only partially worked through it and, given more time, they would have reached the inevitable conclusion that it was unworkable and junked it; however, they haven't had that extra time because Sunak sprung the election on them, they were desperate to produce something shiny and new, so they dragged this one out of the cupboard to appeal to the right wing.

Yes of course the Swiss are famed for their military competence. They stay out of it

It's also changed my mind about 16&17 yr olds being able to vote as this stupid policy would affect them.