Will missing Further Maths in Year 12 affect aerospace engineering options?

[Givemestrengthwontyou]

My son has just started college doing a levels in Maths, Physics and Chemistry. He was always going to do Further Maths too but changed his mind on enrolment day. He now regrets that. He got grade 8 in all the above gcses and wants to go to Uni next and possibly do Aerospace Engineering or similar. He is only 4 weeks into yr 12 and asked about starting FM but they've said no as it's full/won't fit in with his current timetable. They have said he could start it in yr 13 but then he'd only get half an A level? Would that count for anything? I know he's angry with himself for not doing it from the start and I'm wondering if that decision will affect his next steps? Any advice appreciated.

I find it hard to imagine it wouldn't fit in with his timetable – his choices plus FM are surely textbook? Is it really full? It's not usually that popular a choice tbh; in DS2's year it ran with about 8 students but could surely have fitted in another.

Also it is often dropped by ppl who struggle (hence taking four) so surely they are likely to have gaps? Can he ask them again?

That said, FM with anything below a 9 (I know, I sound like peak MN!) might be a concern. DS got an 8 in GCSE and decided not to take FM (not just bc of that tbf). Depends I guess if it was an easy 8 with no effort or a hard-won grade.

I would think in terms of uni for aero eng, not having FM could be a disadvantage, not bc it is asked for especially but bc so many will have it. I am sure tho if he did a year of it and flagged this on his PS that would help. I suggest he emails some admission tutors at possible unis and asks what you have asked. Hope he works something out.

If he self studies and does the AS exam as a private candidate, would they let him join the second year in year 13?

He could likely get onto an aerospace course without it but it would benefit him once he's at uni to have it, iyswim.
Grade 8 gcse maths for FM alevel is more than enough.

As far as I am aware, few Engineering courses require FM and even where they may favour applicants with it, the assumption will be that excellent grades are achieved in that and the other subjects taken.

Grade 8 in GCSE Maths, Physics and Chemistry are very good results. However, the step up to A levels is significant, particularly in Maths, with fewer than 40% of those achieving an 8 at Maths GCSE going on to secure an A or above in A level Maths.

Obviously the step up in relation to FM is even greater and there is the risk of grade dilution. Better, say, AstarAA without FM than, say, AstarABC with FM in the mix. Fewer doors would actually be open with the latter outcome.

Yes, it might have been better to enroll in FM to test the waters; but if that is not possible then lots of options remain open and focusing on smashing those Maths, Chemistry and Physics grades would be a very good outcome.

I'd suggest he talk immediately to the careers advisor at his college and if they think it's going to be something critical for his university aspirations, I'm sure they can negotiate something with the college on his behalf.

Look at sone possible uni / course combinations, and see if anything is said about FM. Oxford/Cambridge and maybe imperial could be out. Gut feel is anywhere else will be fine with it.

Yes, AS FM would be helpful - if nothing else it will get him ahead of the first year engineering maths courses!

@PerpetualOptimist makes a good point about dilution of grades. If he can start now with FM (after negotiation) this deffo needs keeping an eye on. even if a uni usually wants FM, yes it is very much going to be happier with Astar AA than AABC or whatever.

Bristol uni for example (a leader in this area I think I am right in saying) wants Astar AA with maths and gives pref to anyone with one of a short list which includes FM but also physics and chem. As I say, it might be worth asking (that's if he is likely to get those kinds of grades) Bristol uni how many of their accepted offers actually feature FM.

Imperial btw says FM is recommended but not essential; no aerospace eng degree at Oxford; Cambs says FM A level or AS so that may be fine too. Not many unis will actually state FM tho (Bath doesn't either).

An 8 in GCSE maths would not be considered suitable for further maths at DDs school. Even many with 9s wouldnt be recommended to take it.

Would it fit into his timetable if he dropped Chemistry?

I’m just here to say I used to work for a company called GE Aviation, they have a big facility in Cardiff and I am pretty sure they run apprentice schemes and internships, he should look at them once he’s doing his degree. There is also a nuclear engineering company called Arabelle Solutions in Rugby, it is run by a female aeronautical engineer, again they are hiring and worth a look for him in future. Loads of employment options in this field.

They can't say you MUST have it as some sixth forms don't offer it. If it's offered, it would be a negative not to take it for the competitive courses.

But for somewhere with lower entry requirements eg UWE - not a problem

Yes as I wrote my last post I was thinking just that – would he be better off dropping chemistry and taking FM as a third? It's not very common but it certainly does happen and I know YP who did that, maths, FM + x (physics or CS often). You need to be sure you are going to love the maths tho. But it would still leave decent options at uni if aero eng was not the one – other engineering (not chemical tho) and also economics and also obvs maths.

But if he might switch to wanting to do a chem degree or medicine for example (possible without bio) then that's a factor to bear in mind.

Thanks all. I spoke to him in more detail today. The head of maths told him that all the FM classes are full so no chance of him getting in. If someone dropped out he said it would be too much work to catch up on. My DS doesn't fully understand what he said about doing FM only in year 13 so I'm going to email to clarify.

It would mean him joining a Y12 FM class in Y13 and learning the Y12 content which would enable him to sit AS FM next summer.

Ds got 5 offers from RG unis to study integrated masters in aerospace e gineer ing with the self same a levels as your son.

Sorry the world has gone mad if someone with GCSE 9 in Maths is not considered suitable for A-level FM.

DS is year 13 and applying for aerospace engineering, he started with maths, further maths, physics and chemistry, but dropped chemistry at the start of this year to focus on his grades in the other 3.

Of the unis he has looked at, only Cambridge requires further maths if the school offer it - their degree is general engineering with specialism in later years. He didn’t look at Imperial, but I know it’s very competitive so I imagine further maths would make a stronger application. I don’t think any of the others had it as a requirement, but from open days it would make the first year easier if you had done it.

How does his school teach maths and further maths? At DS’s they did the first year of maths in the first term, then did the first year of further maths and sat AS at the end of year 12. But his friends elsewhere did only maths last year and sat that in the summer, then this year only do further maths. If it was like that maybe it would be feasible for him to join it in year 13 then finish off maths alongside too?

Honestly, if your school is labelling some grade 9 students as unsuitable for FM there is something wrong with their teaching.

No just realistic. My DS got an 8 for maths gcse and decided that meant he’d struggle with maths a level as that 8 was hard won, he’s not a natural and so further maths would be off the table

It’s not about teaching either, some people just aren’t natural mathematicians. Recognising that is very useful, and when you know those who are natural mathematicians it’s obvious. It’s an extreme example but I had a boyfriend years ago who was a maths whizz. He got a degree in maths and never had to do any work, he “saw” the answers. Kids can be the same.