Why are engineering degree courses suddenly all wanting AAA

[CatM1nt]

Looking at next years entry and I’m sure some were AAB previously when we looked.

I can% assure you that if he gets AAB next year, he will be able to secure a place at a Russell Group/other well regarded university for Engineering. He may need to bag AAA or A*AA predictions to secure offers at some of them, but there are plenty of Russell Group unis that, on results day, take people with AAB. As a UCAS adviser we can see data on what grades universities actually accepted in 2017-19. With some exceptions (Oxbridge, Imperial etc), the grades that universities actually take are a lot lower than their “typical offer” as advertised on their websites.

MSc = Master of Science

Indeed. Writing MSc would have been enough.

user1497207191

Because something is clearly amiss if 70% of grades in some school are As.

@CatM1nt

Nothing to do with private schools having their wages paid by parents and results getting bums on seats? Hopefully it will be looked into. Maybe all state kids need contextualised offers.

No, nothing to do with this. What you are describing would be institutionalised fraud on a huge scale.

Bryonyshcmyony

Even more annoying when it was in the midst of home learning and Covid.

Amazing how people cannot understand that not missing a day of teaching might help a student to get top grades. Why on earth would anyone think a student who finished the curriculum in February, didn't miss a day of school even over lockdown, then did approx 15 assessments might do better than a bright kid who missed a full term of teaching then had patchy attendance due to bubbles bursting? I'm not saying it's fair, but it's obvious where the higher grades came from.

Look, I’m no apologist for private schools but it doesn’t take much imagination to see how 70% of grades being A-A would be reasonable in some schools. Some sixth forms are very selective. If every student doing A Level at a school has an average grade of 7.5+ at GCSE and a grade 8 in the subjects they are doing at A Level, it’s easy to see how 70% plus would get A-A grades. There are state schools with those sorts of results too. Brampton Manor, the state school that made the news for getting over 50 into Oxbridge, would have exceeded that figure easily. If you look at their entry criteria then it’s fairly obvious that there’s not going to be many kids securing a place who wouldn’t be capable of 3 As. The same will be true at many private schools.

Ours got a huge proportion of As and A*s anyway even in pure exam times, so I feel 100% confident in my dds grades. She got what was predicted.

The reason the universities want AAA is because it's now easier to get AAA.

Previously, it would have been equally difficult to get AAB, so presumably your DS's predictions would have been contextually lower and he would have been under exactly the same amount of pressure to convert (e.g.) AAC or ABB to AAB.

I think you have become side-lined by the 'unfairness' of it all. The reality is that your DS wants to do a degree which is a bit of a stretch for him to get into. That's fine, he just needs to work really hard. That's not new pressure, it's always been the case for anyone setting themselves a high bar.

MadameMinimes

They jumped hugely this year though.

Seems like the world and his dog wants engineering anyway. Surely an apprenticeship better?

They did. I’m not disputing that. as I’ve said a couple of times though, universities are aware that state school students outperform their peers in private schools who have the same A Level grades once they reach university, and this is reflected in their offers.

AAB will be enough to secure an engineering spot at a decent university next year. Ignore the ridiculously high offer grades that universities post on their websites. They all want to look more competitive than they actually are and very few universities can fill all of their engineering places with AAA+ students.

If what you want is a rant about private schools, then that’s fine, but I responded assuming that what you actually wanted was some reassurance that the universities don’t actually expect the high grades that they say they do.

@Bryonyshcmyony

Seems like the world and his dog wants engineering anyway. Surely an apprenticeship better?

Not really, you need masters to become chartered or a hell of a lot like an entire career of experience. Apprenticeships seem better suited to more ‘hands on’ work.

OP I feel for you but as others have said, not everywhere wants AAA for engineering.

And in any case ask isn't always get. DD got in on clearing with BCC to a course whose prospectus offer is AAB - the following year it was in clearing at CDD! This isn't a top tier uni (and it's not for engineering) but I hope you see my point.

There is some flexibility. It is worth applying. Personal statement is not about extra curricular (DS2 barely mentioned his). Why you want to study the course and what has inspired you, plus any research related etc is more important.

The issue is that the more popular unis have got their fingers a bit burnt this year - DS2 has got his grades to go to Loughborough and OI believe they are massively oversubscribed, as are other popular unis.

Maybe your DS should include somewhere less popular as a back-up.

I'm not sure how it works in England but in Scotland there are lots of HND courses with articulation routes onto University degrees, they are mostly for stem, engineering and computing, they are great for late developers who didn't hit peak academic performance in time for school exams. Is there something similar in England? It takes longer obviously but the fees aren't high and most students live at home while doing it the college part.

No MadameMinimes didn’t want a private school rant but kind of fell into one with all the AAA is to be expected posts. It wasn’t before. Your posts are really reassuring. I’ll tell him.

universities are aware that state school students outperform their peers in private schools who have the same A Level grades once they reach university, and this is reflected in their offers

This is not why universities offer contextually

OK - this is coming from someone who has worked as a computer programmer for (gulp) over 25 years.

Computer Science degrees are not necessarily that well regarded in the industry anyway. I wouldn't go as far as irrelevant when you're starting out but after a few years working that's basically true, What's actually respected are:

a) Professional Certification (from Oracle or Microsoft for example)
b) Experience of real development work.

Your son might be better off doing a degree in but getting himself some industry qualifications on the side and some development experience if only on a "hobby" basis.

Computer programming is one of those areas where you either "have it" or you don't. I'm self taught for all my skills. My degree was actually in Philosophy but I taught myself programming in my bedroom. Sounds like your son is the same.

I hope he doesn't get downhearted, I know people including family who decided against University and are doing very well and don't have mountains of debt at the end of it.

* So how do you think universities should decide which applicants to accept? Grade inflation is becoming such an issue most universities will probably have to go down the entrance exam route.*

^This

University of Surrey has BBB for Mech Eng (Beng) and AAB for (MEng). Good course. Good University. Industrial year well supported.

So how do you think universities should decide which applicants to accept? Grade inflation is becoming such an issue most universities will probably have to go down the entrance exam route.

^This

or if not entrance exams, then interviews where the more articulate privately educated kids do better. I feel sorry for those clever kids who have working class parents who can no longer stand out from the crowd.

@CatM1nt

Sheffield wants 3 AAAs now.

He isn’t complaining I am. He is getting low, disheartened and thinking an engineering degree at a good uni isn’t going to be possible for him.
Kids thinking AAB/ABB predicted grades are shit is really sad.. They’ve had an awful year thanks to Covid, this kind of crap on top is pants.

Just had a quick look at a couple of engineering courses at University of Birmingham, which ranks in the top 20 according to the Times guide, and they are saying AAB, so there definitely are good universities out there not asking for AAA.

@2boysDad

So how do you think universities should decide which applicants to accept? Grade inflation is becoming such an issue most universities will probably have to go down the entrance exam route.

^This

or if not entrance exams, then interviews where the more articulate privately educated kids do better. I feel sorry for those clever kids who have working class parents who can no longer stand out from the crowd.

Unis don't have time to interview all applicants when we're heading towards 50% of school leavers going to Uni, and each of those will make at least 3 applications through UCAS.

Entrance exams are the better option if they're still getting too many applicants once they've raised their entry requirements. But they can't raise them beyond what's possible. Some are already at A*, and, currently there's nothing higher.

Although I do expect an A* grade to be introduced for next year as the only viable way out of the grade inflation of the last 2 years!

Backing up 2BoysDad here, and I have over 30 years in software and my parents were programmers too!
Although HR departments generally do look for CS or other numerate degrees, every place I've worked at has had one or more people who came in via a different route - English grads, Chemistry grads, drop out medical students, kids who joined after A levels or BTEC as summer students and never left as their careers were doing fine without a degree.
If you can show and talk about relevant stuff you have done (and it demonstrates adequate competence and comprehension) the good firms will listen.
I personally did a maths degree and learned 99% of what I needed for work, on the job. I had done a bit of computer programming at school - good old BASIC - so I had a vague idea of what a program was and so on. But that was it.

Good software firms love to get likely kids in as interns/sandwich students/holiday students, because it's win-win, if they suit you can train them up and their career progresses nicely and they get (often) a bit of sponsorship, if they're duds or square pegs you just don't ask them back but the experience still looks good on their cv.

Southampton wanted 3a's. And a*aa on a couple of engineering courses 3 years ago. It's not unusual, both maths and physics needed to be a as well (dd was doing 4 a levels).