A levels or apprenticeship

[Whatnextcrazyworld]

DS has just finished Year 11 at a private school where he is predicted 7s and 8s in his GCSEs. He hasn't particularly enjoyed the last two years and has previously said that he's not keen on doing A levels. I've been open to looking at apprenticeships but am being told that it would be a big mistake not to do A levels. DS isn't interested in going to uni but has "accepted" that he will stay on for sixth form - I'm concerned that he's agreed to this for the wrong reasons. [We've discussed going to college for a change but he's clear that he'd rather stay at his current school if he does study A levels.]

My family are insistent that all employers will expect A levels and that they would think it very odd that a pupil from an independent school would not have A levels. It's very long time since my husband and I went to school and the world is totally different to when we started work.

If you have experience of going straight to an apprenticeship after GCSEs, can you clarify whether you can do to a Level 3 (which I understand is equivalent to two A levels) or are most of them Level 2 at age 16.

Do you mind telling me what type of apprenticeships your sons are doing please?
Both sons did different types of engineering to the other.
The courses suited them.
As I said ds1's employer is putting him through his degree and he has picked up loads of industry qualifications on the way that are transferable should he change jobs. Ds2 will have a degree by the end of his apprenticeship. He has already got other qualifications as he progresses through his apprenticeship. Ds2 was the more academic of the two and very intelligent. He got several GCSE's a year early and was A* and As for everything except ironically engineering!!

We wanted them to do uni but it is not about our hope's and dreams. That wont make them successful. Finding their niche in life will.

Could he have moved to a local college?

Engineering apprenticeships are not for everyone. Engineering is not for everyone.

I wish this could be a sticky on the top of every single higher education thread

*notacooldad

I don't know a single teen who dropped out of A levels unless they had a MH issue.
Mine did and he didn't have MH issues. Best thing he did. It wasnt for him.

That's great if he's now doing well
He is. I've said to the OP in an update what he is up to. I was surprised he dropped out but then I could see that he was becoming increasingly unhappy. To me it wasnt worth it. He tried to carry on because he didn't want to let me or his dad down. However we encouraged him to be true to himself. He wanted to work and he isnt a dosser who stays in his room on a x box. He has a good work ethic and that has helped.

We wanted them to do uni but it is not about our hope's and dreams. That wont make them successful. Finding their niche in life will. I totally agree!

Bryony: he says if he does A levels he wants to stay at his current school because he knows everyone and it's local. There are some decent colleges around but he's clear on this issue.

Honestly, the more you write the more I think your DS is correct.
He's chosen the A levels to be 'not GCSEs', he's not really interested in them.
A bright lad, doing an apprenticeship for a good company who indicate they are in it for the long haul, could go far.
If it all goes wrong, he can do an access course and uni later.

(DH and I have degrees in STEM subjects, but neither DD1 nor DD2 are that academic. DD1 did Travel & Tourism, failed nursery apprenticeship (hurt back) and then worked for a hotel pre-pandemic, DD2 is about to start a BTEC at college).

Engineering apprenticeships are not for everyone Engineering is not for everyone

No one said they were. 🤔

@notacooldad

*notacooldad

I don't know a single teen who dropped out of A levels unless they had a MH issue.
Mine did and he didn't have MH issues. Best thing he did. It wasnt for him.

That's great if he's now doing well
He is. I've said to the OP in an update what he is up to. I was surprised he dropped out but then I could see that he was becoming increasingly unhappy. To me it wasnt worth it. He tried to carry on because he didn't want to let me or his dad down. However we encouraged him to be true to himself. He wanted to work and he isnt a dosser who stays in his room on a x box. He has a good work ethic and that has helped.

I encouraged one of mine to do a BTEC alongside 2 "easier" A levels. She really enjoyed the BTEC and did really well in it. Also might be an option for the OP's ds? There's a hospitality one.

That wont make them successful. Finding their niche in life will
Oops lost my train of thought there!

I'd like to say a massive THANK YOU to everyone who has commented on this thread.

DS is away for a couple of days but I will show him and DH this thread so that they can each hear both sides of the argument - and the other suggestions that various posters have made.

(btw she ended up doing a degree at a middling uni, absolutely loving it and is now doing a masters! — still loves working in the pub though!)

@TeenMinusTests

Honestly, the more you write the more I think your DS is correct. He's chosen the A levels to be 'not GCSEs', he's not really interested in them. A bright lad, doing an apprenticeship for a good company who indicate they are in it for the long haul, could go far. If it all goes wrong, he can do an access course and uni later.

(DH and I have degrees in STEM subjects, but neither DD1 nor DD2 are that academic. DD1 did Travel & Tourism, failed nursery apprenticeship (hurt back) and then worked for a hotel pre-pandemic, DD2 is about to start a BTEC at college).

I really appreciate that comment! I'm trying to look at this from DS's point of view and HIS future [not mine, not DH's] and what is best for him.

He's a clever boy! If he's not a hard worker then swerve traditional subjects and do business, PE/Food tech and one other (a language would be great he could then work abroad in hospitality)

Food tech is no longer available as an A level though.
My suggestion would be to look at a level 3 vocational course such as a BTEC in Travel and tourism / hospitality that provides work experience in the sector rather than concentrate on one employer at this stage. I do know one or 2 young people who started apprenticeships who ran into problems because their employers had financial difficulties.

DD's BTEC in T&T was not nearly as 'hands on' as we had been led to believe. Far too much assessing by writing rather than verbal or showing. The nursery apprenticeship was far more 'show' and less 'write', though of course that could just have been the difference between the courses.

All apprenticeships are competitive. He shouldn’t just assume he’d get it. Check out the awarding college/ institute and their ratings. Some are v poor.
Could he get a pt job there? Some places look swanky but have appalling cultures and exploit staff.

If he’s not interested in business I’m a bit shocked he wants to do hospitality - there’s surely quite a bit of crossover!

It’s also REALLY late in the year to have these conversations - has he not had any careers or progression support at uni?

SometimesRaven: He would be interested in Business within hospitality, just not keen on an A level in that subject.

To be clear, he isn't at uni ... he's 16 and has just finished Year 11. With the sort of year everyone has had, there hasn't been a huge amount of careers advice and the sessions on offer have been in areas he doesn't want to go into (eg, law, architecture, construction).

My younger daughter is in a very similar frame of mind. The bottom line is she is just totally fed up with school, mostly due to the horrible couple of years they've just had. She has ADD and lives in the moment, so all she can remember is the stress and anxiety of non-GCSEs and none of the nice things about school.

On the other hand, she doesn't actually have any firm ideas about what else whe would do. So we've reached a position where she's made a positive choice to give A levels her best shot, on the basis that sixth form will be a bit of a fresh start and hopefully she'll rediscover her mojo after a good long break.

If she bombs this year, we have accepted that she may end up doing a three year "sixth form" by heading off to college and starting something new in year 13. But at least she'll have given it a go.

What happens beyond the age of 18 is anyone's guess, but in the absence of a positive choice to do something vocational, I'm of the view a trio of A levels is the best way to keep options open. Ask me this time next year whether it was the right decision!

I knew A levels wouldn't suit DS so I found a level 3 extended Diploma BTEC which was so much more him. It's equivalent to 3 A levels and he did it at an independent school. He came out with the equivalent of 3 A's at A level which he would never have got had he studied A levels. There are exam modules in the extended diploma and the combination of assessment & exams is great for uni. There are a few uni's who still want an A level as well but most will accept on it's own. There are also some great degree level apprenticeships which would be accessible with either A levels or equivalent BTEC. Is there a reason why DS has discounted BTEC's? There are some worth the equivalent of a GCSE and others much higher so it pays to understand the certificate, extended certificate, diploma, extended diploma before completely ruling out.

@Whatnextcrazyworld

SometimesRaven: He would be interested in Business within hospitality, just not keen on an A level in that subject.

To be clear, he isn't at uni ... he's 16 and has just finished Year 11. With the sort of year everyone has had, there hasn't been a huge amount of careers advice and the sessions on offer have been in areas he doesn't want to go into (eg, law, architecture, construction).

Sorry my last sentence should have read at school not at uni…I work in a uni and it’s been a long week!!

An A Level in Business (or BTEC, or T Level) would cover the broad themes of business which would apply to hospitality, which is why I find it interesting he isn’t interested in it. For me, it suggests that his focus is perhaps a bit too narrow.

I can see the potential benefits in him going straight to an apprenticeship that he’s interested in…but also A LOT of pitfalls. First of all, what is the qualification he’ll actually get? How many A Level equivalents is it worth? Is it transferable to other careers/areas of interests if actually in a year he goes off the idea of hospitality? He’s very young and with Covid won’t have had that much work place exposure I assume. So is he just interested in this because it’s all he knows?

My concern with students going straight into apprenticeships at post 16 is the fact it CAN limit their options. Now for some kids that’s absolutely fine - for others it’s a short sighted move that is ultimately not the best choice. In my opinion, hospitality falls into the second bracket - it’s tough work, unsociable hours, not the best pay and also as the last year as proved, can be unstable work. It can also be difficult to pivot from hospitality into different careers. So if after 2 or 3 years he realises he doesn’t want to do that for the rest of his life…he’s left needing to look at retraining which could be costly.

The fact he’s being quite my way or the highway about it (apprenticeships or subjects I don’t really like because I won’t move school) suggests to be he perhaps isn’t thinking about this in the most mature way possible. There could be fantastic meet in the middle options at local colleges. With that in mind I think it all needs a lot more discussions (and all being willing to consider other viewpoints and options) between the three of you.

Also, I know you’ve said the employer has said they want to train up their apprentices through the levels - MANY employers say that. Don’t take them at face value. How many apprentices are on each level? How many progress through each level? What is their success/failure rate? How is each level delivered? What is the criteria for being able to progress? Who is the accrediting body for each level?
There are many, many fantastic apprenticeships out there. But also, LOADS of rubbish ones.

ACHicken: That makes interesting reading and I expect this is where DS will end up.

TheTeenageYears: Unfortunately BTECs - and T levels - have been ruled out for DS for various reason but I agree they are a very good alternative.

SometimesRaven: I totally agree that apprenticeships vary hugely and that some employers will offer more than they will deliver.

Interestingly, I don't think my DH wants him to look at colleges as he is of the mindset that a "private education" counts for something more than it actually does in some cases (in my opinion!). DS will be his current school for A levels for certain ... so £12,000 per A level [but that's a different discussion].

I am not against him doing A levels [as my DH seems to think I am] but I dread two years of potential misery and DS being unhappy. I'm interested in us ALL exploring and discussing the options so that DS feels he has been heard and has some input into the decision. It may well be that A levels will be the most sensible option but I want this conclusion to come from my DS, not just from being bullied into them.

I'm amazed you and your dh have such different approaches to education. You seem to be very apologetic and unenthused by your son's private school and quite determined to undermine what your dh thinks to the point you are happy to let your ds leave school at 16 and work in a pub! Madness.

Can't do BTECs, can't go to college! Honestly OP, you need to start getting on board with the A levels and look for a tutor if you suspect your ds will do badly and therefore disappoint your dh and you in some way when you've spent so much money. Sounds to me thst you are so worried about this you are considering him leaving at 16.

My dd is doing A levels: Maths, Physics and computer science she wants to go to uni and study a STEM subject. Her friend is doing psychology, sociology and art and she is more like OPs ds and probably doesn't want to go to uni, she might look for an apprenticeship after A level or a job. I would say they are about the same intelligence but dd is much better at maths. The friend is having an easier time than dd, the courses dds friend chose are just not as intense and although she is still having to work hard, she doesn't feel that pressure to get A,A,A* or whatever that you need for a good uni. So I think if your DS does decide to say on for A levels picking courses he is interested in and are maybe not the most intense will make A levels more bearable.

Dd1 did A level and uni
Dd2 did apprenticeship

Both enjoyed their choice
Both now earn the same