My sisters children are going to be removed

[Namechange543]

Name changed for this but hoping someone can offer some advice.

My sisters children are going to be removed, there is a court hearing on Tuesday to decide this but with the overwhelming evidence against her and the fact they’ve been on a child protection plan for so long with her making no positive steps it’s only going to go one way.

The social worker tells me once the judge has made a decision they will speak to family about placements for them. I really want to help but the problem is she has 3 children and I already have 2 of my own so I can’t take them all. I have a 4 bed house so couldn’t fit them even if I could cope with 5 children.

Will they want them to stay together or will they split them to keep them with family? And if they do split them how on earth do you decide which 1 you take?

It’s such a nightmare. My mum could take 1 and I could take 1 but then do we leave the 1 not chosen to go into foster care. How damaging would that be! I’ve cried so much this week with the guilt that I can’t help them all.

By the sounds of it they can’t be kept together because of the fighting which sound very serious, I think you should take the youngest one, hopefully the older two will go to different foster home they sound like they need one to one time with foster parents, and lots of therapy. You can still ask social services if you can still have contact with the other two. I do feel so sorry for you as what ever you do it you will feel fall of guilt.

@endlessginandtonic Not a clue no. She won’t discuss anything and keeps saying let’s see what happens at the hearing and then we will chat. I understand she’s limited on what she can say due to confidentiality but it’s been very frustrating. This is the same social worker that called 1 child hospitalising another as ‘sibling rivalry’ when I asked why the child in need plan wasn’t being escalated.

They should do a sibling assessment to see if the children stay together. Sometimes it’s not best to keep them together and it’s sounds like this is the case in this situation.

@Evelefteden

Take the nine year old and five year old. You do have the space.

You can’t turn your back on one child. You've got to at least try.

Not at the expense of her family she doesnt. The OP sounds a lovely, caring person who is trying to do the best she can. Rushing in and saying "I'll have them all" is the LAST thing these poor kids need. They need reasoned, planned long term care that wont come back and bite the OP and her family.

Even if the boys are initally placed together they will be quickly split up because very few Foster Carers will be able to manage 3 boys with that sort of behaviour (and nor should they). The older two sound like they need a lot more support than a Foster placement, maybe a therapeutic home.

If this was me, I would take the 5 year old who has a better chance of recovery and then offer respite of one weekend a month separately for the other two boys. Maybe have the 5 Yr old stay at your mums the nights each boy is over until you are certain they are safe.

@conduitoffortune is correct, viable alternatives should have been looking into prior to the case going to court.

I’m confused OP
You repeatedly say how social services downplayed everything

However the children are now being permanently removed. So how can they have downplayed and they are being removed completely from her?

As for the situation - it doesn’t sound like you should give any consideration to the children being separated (But still allowed contact). It sounds a postcode move in fact, at least in the short term so they can get full attention and focus.

Depending on the judgment I'd also be raising merry hell with SS at their handling of this all and escalating that.

Downplaying the issues is extremely concerning and I would push hard for that to change when looking for a foster placement.

Someone provided details upthread of legal support for you- do take that rather than seeking out specific stuff from SW posters on here.

Postcode should read positive

@Evelefteden

Take the nine year old and five year old. You do have the space.

You can’t turn your back on one child. You've got to at least try.

Go and read about trauma and the effects it has on the developing child's brain. You cannot generalise like this. It's not little orphan Annie we're talking about here. You're talking about seriously traumatised kids who might well show some seriously messed up and even dangerous personality traits because of what's happened. No child should be given up on but OP shouldn't feel obliged to take responsibility for them either and she needs to be honest about what caring for them is likely to entail. It's far too simplistic just to say she should take them on especially when she has her own kids to consider ...

You can support them, that doesn’t necessarily mean taking them into your family home to live. Be a good role model for them, be a safe person for them to turn to and trust.

They will need someone who can cope and manage their complex needs - I would say an experienced foster carer who will already understand the impact of the trauma and how to handle some of the behaviour.

Ultimately I would want them to go to the best place for them, and as they have different needs it may be that they get separated.

I appreciate that may sound harsh and that’s not my intention. I think you’re searching for a solution within the family, when that may not be the best option for the children.

Maybe you take the 5yo and let social services help the eldest? Good luck x

[quote Namechange543]@SimonJT No were not in the same authority. I hadn’t realised that matters. I would be asking for support as they all need intensive support to deal with what they’ve been through. Do you really think they are too old to recover from this? I know they will never fully get over it but I had hoped that with the right support they would be able to be happy and safe in society etc. As it stands they will end up copying the same criminal behaviour and repeating the cycle of abuse. I really want to try and stop that.[/quote]
When a child moves to a different authority it is fairly common for the authority they ‘belong’ to essentially withhold funding for vital care needs.

If you haven’t already have a look at brain development and ACEs. 0-3 years are the most vital times for a child, what happens in those years determines a childs future. If you look at the brain of a neglected child v a healthily raised child you’ll see that even the size of the neglected childs brain is different. A traumatised child never recovers, some will be able to develop coping strategies, but the impact of early trauma will always be there. My son has no conscious memory of what happened to him but it has a fairly significant impact on his everyday behaviour. Some of it could seem insignificant such as being over eager to please adults which makes him very vulnerable, other things are more noticable such as weeing on his bedroom floor most days, trying to eat out of bins at school.

Hi Op I don't know what you should do but I thought I'd say my experience from being the dc in this situation. There were only 2 of us but my sister dealt with the trauma by beating me up right from very young. She even stabbed me and left the thing sticking out of my arm while my mum told me it was my fault because I'd annoyed her I had to go and clean up the after mess alone. I never fought back. I just wanted to be as far away as possible from her. She was very violent to other dc too, hitting one in the mouth with a spanner once because they annoyed her.

We were never taken away. I wish we had been. We needed to be.
Anyway I am posting because perhaps there is hope regardless of what you choose.

Away from the trauma I ran away one day and never returned to my home in my late teens. I was absolutely traumatised. I couldn't even have someone wave at me without flinching from previous violence. But... i thrived. I went back to college and educated myself ended up at university. My sister also did this after me. We are both well paid professionals despite our start!

We are nc now, we don't like each other and we both pretend none of it ever happened I'm also nc with my mum.

We are not happy happy and probably never will be 'recovered' but we are ok. Both of us have dc and we could never hurt our dc.
I am friends with a foster carer, she is very experienced and is able to deal with the most traumatised dc. They can cause all sorts of issues. I can't imagine bringing that into my currently peaceful home. Sometimes the dc do better with more experienced carers tbh. Also I personally would have rather been far away from any member of my family even nice ones if it meant there was any chance of seeing my family again.
I wish you luck.

@Atadaddicted They’ve downplayed it for years. The incident where one child was hospitalised was a year ago. 2 years ago my sister was found to have been giving them sleeping tablets. In January one of the children stabbed another child ( while out playing). They’ve downplayed all this as naughty children, sibling rivalry etc. Not recognised this behaviour is a result of serious and longstanding abuse. It’s only going to court now coz they’ve got no choice as 1 child has sexually abused another. Social services have been involved for 6 years now. Those children could have been removed a long time ago and been saved from so much.

I wouldn't take any of them. They all need specialist care and you will be left to your own devices by SS largely. You can't insist on anything, either. This will have a huge impact on your own kids' lives and may actually destroy your own (and your marriage if you have one).

I completely agree with MrsNoah2020. Do NOT be guilted into taking them, they are much better off with experienced foster care.

Please don't feel guilty that you've not helped your nephews. You have. You've seen them each week and you've tried to make their home safer by reporting your sister to social services. Having someone looking out for them matters, even if it doesn't feel as though it's necessarily made the difference you'd have liked.

I expect it's unlikely that you or your mum will be asked which child you might be able to care for. It's possible that you will be both be assessed as possible placements and then spoken to about which, if any, of the boys may be placed with you. I would imagine your DCs would probably form part of the assessment too because of their ages. I have worked with primary age children who have been removed from their parents and most of the siblings have ended up being split because of their very different needs. In some cases, younger siblings have been placed together whilst an older one (I'm talking aged 6 or 8) has been found a long-term, therapeutic placement. It sounds as though your older nephews may need separate placements anyway and that the youngest is unlikely to be safe with either.

Talk to your partner and your DCs about your nephews and how they'd like to be involved in supporting them. That might be by regular contact and may not be by fostering one of them. It's OK for your teenagers to worry that their GCSEs etc. may be disturbed if a violent younger child moves in - would there be respite available for them if that happened?

@Rainbowshine Thank you. It’s hard to admit but I understand I may not necessarily be the best option for them. I would feel more reassured if I knew they were looking for therapeutic homes for them but they haven’t yet told me their plans.

I feel for all of you .No advice really ,I think if you feel it would be too much (and 3 children plus your own would be very hard on you and DH) then to try and not feel guilty(difficult I know!)I dont know if they could all be place together realistically .Your DS may also want to see and care for DC while you or DM have them ,which may not be in their best interests .Is there a possibility your DS could have them back at any point in the future do you think?

It's your family, you should take them all.

OP my heart is breaking here for you and those poor children.I know you want to do everything you can but you do have your own family to consider.Your children who need you.To consider disrupting their lives takes some getting your head around.Would your children be slightly resentful if their mum is re arranging their lives too? There is so much to consider.Sadly in life you cannot save everyone with the best will in the world.Your immediate family must come first and their ultimate well being before you try to save your sisters boys.I am so so sorry you are grappling with this horrendous situation.Be kind to yourself.No guilt.You can only do what you can do and if you loose your kids trying to save your sisters that would be incredibly hard for you to live with.I wish you well.I wish for you there was a magic wand but sadly there isnt and I can feel how much you are agonizing and hurting.The commitment time,patience and energy you would need would mean so many sacrifices for your own family it needs realisticallly thinking about.You will feel like you cant win either way and its distressing.Just remember you owe your family far more than you owe your sisters chldren.Its horrible to say that and I dont do it lightly.it sounds so cruel but its very black and white when you boil it down. I have no answers for you to make you feel any easier and i am so sorry for that but being selfless and trying to do the right thing could be very nuch the wrong thing for you and your kids....I am so sorry its devastating all ways round. take care lovely lady ....xxx

Op this is a tragedy
This children need intense and committed and professional help.

I would leave for foster carers very experienced. I would visit as regularly as possible (At least weekly) and as an ongoing commitment so that they know they have not been abandoned

It's OK for your teenagers to worry that their GCSEs etc. may be disturbed if a violent younger child moves in - would there be respite available for them if that happened?

Ha! Try getting respite from SS? It's like trying to get blood out of a stone.

Namechange, you must of course but your own kids first. This is a very tricky age for them as teens and it really won't do to have to share their home with a violent child who needs a lot of therapy and sorry, but you simply CANNOT trust SS at all to put in that level of care once one of those children were housed with you, I've seen far too many of cases of pretty much dump and run by SS once they get the child placed.

It's too much to risk for your own family, tbh. And do NOT feel guilty about this.

Sorry, miss out the quote:
It's OK for your teenagers to worry that their GCSEs etc. may be disturbed if a violent younger child moves in - would there be respite available for them if that happened?

You and your family sound lovely. Can you delay your decision? Wait until the court case, see where they are placed? My friends mum was a foster career and children like this thrived in her home. If you see that they are well placed and happy you have time to deal with the decision that you face.
From what they have come from the foster family will be a much a better place even if not perfect.
As long as they are cared for and loved in the long term, it doesn't need to be under your roof. You can still have contact with all three and be a force for good in the lives.

Sassy Susan .Saying OP must resent her DS for" having children she cant look after" is cruel .Many people cannot cope with families due to unforeseen circumstances! No need for us to judge them .Children are lovely but can be very hard work ,and people dont know how they will cope until DC are here!