Visit to abbotoir before veg. child allowed to be meat eater?

[poppynic]

My dp is a ultra-committed vego and decreed that if he had children they would have to be vego. Being desperate and clueless at the time I said, sure, whatever. We have now got through 4 years of vego child.

I asked dp when child could decide for himself. He said 5. Now child (4) is saying he wants to be a meat eater when turns 5. Dp wants child to visit abbatoir first . I'm a big softy and don't think it's fair to put ds through that horror - virtual child abuse. But I want him to be able to be a meat eater if he wants.

What do you think - is an abbatoir visit reasonable for a 5 year old?

I would not take a 5 yr old to an abbatoir. It seems as though the child has been offered the decision to eat meat or not and seeing as ds did not make the decision your partner wanted he wants to manipulate the "right " decision out of him. Wrong on so many levels

"Erm, joelallie, do you think that humans are carnivores?"

Erm ...no. I said "We do what all carnivores do" ie kill and eat other animals, not that we are carnivores.

I grew up on a farm & never had a problem with rearing animals & then eating them.I do remember going to an abbatoir with my dad when I was quite young & it didn't traumatise me.HoweverI wouldn't take a 5 year old & the abbatoir almost certainly wouldn't allow it these days.

As a couple of other posters said,it depends what environment a child has grown up in.My cousins & I,my dd's & their nephews & nieces all grew up around the farm, know where meat comes from & are all meat eaters.

Why don't you take your ds to a cattle market-there are often dead rabbits/pheasants ect for sale & you could explain that they were killed for people to eat.However,your dh might find that he doesn't get the reaction he expects,as children can be quite matter of fact about things.

Oddly enough,the only animal related thing which turned my stomach & still does,is sheep & cows eating afterbirth.Yuk,it is just horrible watching that.Anything else I can take.

Poppynic, i'm a strict veggie (was brought up that way) and hubby is not. Hubby eats meat outside the home and we decided ds will be brought up veggie till he can make his own mind up because not eating meat in our household is the norm. But, if and when he chooses to eat meat he will have to do so outside the home as a} i wouldn't have a freaking clue how to cook meat and b}would be physically repulsed to have meat at home. Hubby is fine with this and when ds starts asking questions about where meat comes from, we'll just tell him the facts. I too once (way before i became pregnant with ds) considered taking our ds to an abbatoir to show the gruesome way animals are reared and slaughtered, but now feel that a simpler factual explanation is all that's needed and anything else is just brainwashing.

poppynic, i am asssuming that dp doesn't wear leather/consume dairy products either?

beckybrastraps - I like your point about child choosing something against their parent's morals - which is something I hadn't thought of. In light of that, and in fact in general, I would be quite happy for ds to remain vegetarian but the thing is he is telling us he wants to eat meat - probably, as most people have said, without the maturity to make a properly considered decision. (Although they are very opinionated on his father's side of the family - Catholic church-going household but sister (also a vegetarian) decided at 5 that there was no god and has not budged her thinking ever since. (took dp until 14 to come to the same decision.)

donkeyswife - yes, ds will probably only have meat outside the home coz I've got out of the habit (although I thought I could do cold meat sandwiches for school (we don't have school cooking in nz and the vegie options are miniscule compared with what's available here). What do you do about gelatine products with your ds?

earlyriser - dp definitely doesn't wear leather and we have to find non-leather footwear for ds too, which is a major pain. (Am looking forward to buying leather footwear if ds decides to eat meat - but not a topic that has as yet been discussed.... Got to admit that the synthetic shoes don't seem to have done him any harm to date.

dp is not vegan therefore does consume dairy products and eggs (I'm certainly not going to tackle him on any potential inconsistencies.) We do only buy free-range eggs and vegie cheese, and generally organic milk.

Oh Earlyriser, I get so fed up with meat-eaters challenging veggies on leather shoes and gelatine. Why does it make you so defensive that you have to cross-question us? As if you are playing some game of 'catch them out'. If you are happy eating meat, why does it bother you how far a vegetarian goes?

FrannyandZoey - just looked at your link article - Prof Rodiquez looks like my dp!!!!!! (well he could at least be his brother - and in facts looks more like him than his actual brothers) how weird is that?

poppynic, my DD1 at 2.5 is quite good at knowing she doesn't eat gelatine so if there are sweets around I can say 'they have gelatine in them' and she is fine about it. I pointed out to nursery that jelly wasn't veggie but she doesn't like it anyway. My friend sometimes makes veg jelly for the kids.

We talk about where meat comes from (my parents are still farmers so that helps) and visit city farms etc. If she asks what other people are eating I say chicken or cow etc. She is just getting to grips with the word 'vegetarian' although she can't say her 'v's.

I let her watch Planet Earth and things where carnivores hunt but I wouldn't take her to an abbatoir!

In the future I am sure she will eat meat/fish at some point but for the time being it's easier for the whole family to be veggie. To be honest kids are often such picky eaters I don't think that mine are missing out nutritionally - some kids eat 26 toffee yoghurts a day and nowt else ffs.

Poppynic do you think dp has a secret life as Prof Thingamabob???

Whenever this debate comes up I am often by those who say their partner is violently opposed to eating meat but they feed it to their children anyway against his wishes. This does show a lack of respect to your partner's feelings.

In our family I was the one who was veggie and DH wasn't but over the years he has found it easier to fit in with me since he doesn't have strong feelings about it. If he had fed any of ours meat I would have been furious.

Similarly if there was anything he felt really strongly about but I had no opinions on (can't think of an example) then I would go along with him. Probably why we are still together after 25 years.

All of mine have been brought up veggie. They were all told that once they were old enough to make up their own minds at 16 (the age I went veggie) then outside the house they could do what they liked, but I would not be buying or cooking meat in my house. Three of them are now over that age and as far as I know don't eat meat, despite all working in McDs (probably because of, actually!!!). If they do, they don't rub my nose in it (as it were). I wouldn't have allowed them to make that decision at 5, anymore than I would have allowed them to choose their own school or any one of the millions of decisions you have to make on behalf of a child.

Dont care what people eat , as long as it is healthy. I do not think that an abbatoir is a suitable place for a 5 year old and there are better ways of eduacating children about where their food comes from.

Whatever someones feeling about not eating meat I think exposing a child of that age to the blood & guts and smell of an abbatoir is cruel.

I am a meat eater and some of you may think that slaughtering animals is cruel but its the child and its feelings that we must think of not what our moral stance is on food.

Edam i have been a vegan for 16 years. I asked because if poppynic's dp was veggie but still wore leather then his idea about taking his son to an abbatoir would be rather hypocritical. Don't you think?

Baboons eat meat if the opportunity arises - and they don't have claws either and are classes as Carnivores.

And snakes certainly don't have them

after all that IS where leather comes from too.

and on the reverse - rabbits don't eat meat (except for the arctic hare) and they have claws.

and great big sharp teeth!

OMG absolutley not! 5 i sfar too young to see that! And I'm a veggie!

He could try educating his son and then letting him choose for himself.

FWIW, he could have the house as veggie and then let ds eat meat outside. He has to accept that he's going to rebel anyway and this is the most obvious thing he'll choose.

But take him to a alaughterhouse at 5? No way. He wants to concentrate on devbeloping his EMPATHIC skills not traumatising him.

Sorry if this has all been said - haven't read the thread..

And buy them the book 'Silent Ark' when they're old enough.

I'd recommend it to anyone interested in the ethics of it all too.

silent ark

this is brilliant

FrannyandZoe - - doubt it - he's on a fairly short leash - but maybe he has a missing twin !

Tallulah - I have never fed ds meat. He did recently tell my mother he chose jellybeans for his special treat because they have gelatine in them but they were honestly the gourmet ones without gelatine (and I told him that.) - it's just that dp said (in response to my question) he could choose when he was 5.

Maybe 5 is too young - but I think it's too late to turn the clock back on that now - it's totally in his head and he tells everybody that when he is 5 he will be able to eat meat. (which will generally be at friends' houses coz I'm not really into meat myself, and have never cooked it in front of dp.)

I was never allowed to make decisions when I was a child and am (perhaps coincidentally) useless at it. Ds, however, is very decisive and I'm happy to let him decide as much as possible. Dp also likes to believe ds should make as many of his own decisions as possible (in fact it's one of the few child-rearing things we agree on .

I think being allowed to make as many decisions as appropriate is the best thing for a child. Which moral decisions you are happy for them to take for themselves, is another matter, for most parents, anyway.

Poppynic I think as you have said, now that ds has been told he can choose when he is 5, it would be unfair and unjust of you or dp to try to take that back, or put provisos on it such as "only after you have x y z". Ds needs to have all the information that is appropriate for his age, to help him make the decision, but it really sounds like he is adamant that he wants to try it, and that trying to dissuade him could even be counter productive.

I think to make the best of things your dp would be wise to see that in this instance, keeping his word to your son is more important than this issue of the meat being tried. Hopefully with your dp providing a strong role model, and if not too much is made of the fact he is trying meat, then your ds will not wish to eat meat often or indeed at all.

Poppynic, the gelatine issue - for me, I always read the label and don't buy gelatine products. As baby boy is just shy of 7 months old, this is not an issue yet. but, when he staarts going to school i would not make him read the label on sweets etc.., When he's old enough to read labels, i'll probably explain how to check for veggie friendly products etc if he's still a vegetarian by then.

For me, you have to draw the line somewhere, and although i'm a strict veggie, I do wear leather shoes. So is hubby gonna stop your ds wearing leather and does your fella wear leather himself?

There can be no life without death , Plants are living things too; has dp heard of freedom of choice?