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Original poster

Visit to abbotoir before veg. child allowed to be meat eater?

182 replies

poppynic · 17/11/2006 11:27

My dp is a ultra-committed vego and decreed that if he had children they would have to be vego. Being desperate and clueless at the time I said, sure, whatever. We have now got through 4 years of vego child.

I asked dp when child could decide for himself. He said 5. Now child (4) is saying he wants to be a meat eater when turns 5. Dp wants child to visit abbatoir first . I'm a big softy and don't think it's fair to put ds through that horror - virtual child abuse. But I want him to be able to be a meat eater if he wants.

What do you think - is an abbatoir visit reasonable for a 5 year old?

OP posts:
PinkTinsel · 17/11/2006 13:16

it's not that bad! we used to get whole unplucked pheasants at xmas from a friend who enjoyed shooting and they took no time at all, and i was always facinated seeing the dead birds as a kid, lol

Tortington · 17/11/2006 13:18

if it was my dp i would tell him to fuck off.

but then we have that kind of relationship.

hope this helps

Tortington · 17/11/2006 13:20

i have many questions about this superiority of fatherhood going on here.

maybe he should take a good look at himself and ask why he would want to take his son to see animals being slaughtered - sounts like a complete fruit

as per previous post tell him to fuck off

PinkTinsel · 17/11/2006 13:21

custardo. i think thats pretty much how the conversation would go in my house too.

Iklboo · 17/11/2006 13:22

If your DS wants a certain brand of trainers, is your DP going to fly him out to the Far East to visit the child labour sweatshops?
I did my work experience at the butchers/slaughterhouse where my dad worked when I was 14 and witnessed may slaughters.
At no point did any of the animals wake up screaming (the 'stun man' woul've be sacked if he allowed this to happen) while I was there. And it would be an absolute impossibility for a cow to do it (won't go into gory details). I'm not saying it might not happen in some abbatoirs, but def not in the one I was at

FrannyandZooey · 17/11/2006 13:24

I can see where your dp is coming from, but I mean of course you can't take a 5 year old to an abbatoir. This IMO is one of the reasons that 5 years old is NOT old enough to be able to decide for yourself whether eating meat is right or wrong. When you ARE able to contemplate the horrors of modern butchery, then you are equipped to make a moral judgement about meat eating.

I have noticed people usually get quite unhappy about the idea of a child not being allowed to eat meat, but for many vegetarians this is an important part of our moral and spiritual beliefs. I don't notice people telling Muslims that they shouldn't teach their children the ways of their faith including dietary observances.

My ds also (sometimes) says he wants to eat meat when he is older. He may do, I don't know. But I know he isn't old enough to understand now, the full picture, and until he is, I will decide for him.

FrannyandZooey · 17/11/2006 13:25

and I don't understand why a father trying to bring his son up to follow his moral principles is being branded a control freak. We ALL try to instil our moral values into our children - it's the proper thing to do.

Blu · 17/11/2006 13:26

"btw, in case you needed more reasons not to bring him, apparenty some of the pigs dont get properly knocked out, wake up when the knife hits their throats and scream and thrash. "

yes, but you can see why that would influence a decision as to whether to rmain vegetarian or not. Isn't that what Poppy's dp is getting at? I don''t necesarily think it is wrong to give a child some knowledge that it might not be a gentle process.

(I'm not veggie, btw)

KathyMCMLXXII · 17/11/2006 13:28

I'm sure you have already come to this conclusion based on what has been said already, but it seems to me that an abbattoir (even if it allowed a visit, which seems doubtful) would be offputting for the wrong reasons: noise, smell, scale, scary men wearing masks, etc, so actually the decision might have nothing to do with animal cruelty. I turned veggy at 13 after going with my mother (a biology teacher) to pick up various animal bits from the abbattoir for her to use in her biology lessons and tbh I'm not sure how rational that was of me!

There are lots of other ways to make sure he really has his head around the fact that he is eating an animal, though - could he watch a video about it? Or look at a book with lots of pictures (eg the Hugh Fearlessly Eatsitall River Cottage Meat Book)? Or maybe a friendly butcher would let him see behind the scenes so you could show him the feathery chicken without having to deal with the mess yourself? (Chicken's feet are fun though - you can pull the tendons and make the claws open and shut )

I do see your dp's point about wanting to be sure he really understands what's going on, but the abbattoir thing sounds like too much....!

Heathcliffscathy · 17/11/2006 13:28

agree strongly with PPH and with blu.

i think there is something very very wrong with children growing up NOT making the link between the meat they eat and the death of the live animal that made it possible for them to eat it.

when ds asks me what he is eating i tell him. so when it is beef, and he says what is that i say it is the meat from a dead cow. he asked me why did it die, i replied it died so that we could eat the meat. he asked who killed it, and i replied, the farmer did.

we talked about it being sad that the animal died. I explained that it was sad but said that we ate meat that was from animals that had had good lives and been properly looked after and that we should appreciate it all the more.

i think it's really important.

brimfull · 17/11/2006 13:28

Haven't read the whole thread ,but are you sure your child isn't only saying he wants to be a meat eater because of the reaction it gets from you and your dp.5 seems quite young to me for a child to make that decision without an ulterior motive such as loads of attention from parents.
Apologies if your child is more sensible and grown up than I imagine a 5 yr old.

joelallie · 17/11/2006 13:30

They should be told the basic truths of meat-eating. ie that meat comes from animals and they are killed beforehand (obviously). That is all they need to know. We do what all carnivores do. There is an argument that many animals we use are treated badly before they are killed but that is a argument for eating well-cared for, free-range etc not for not eating meat, and is also probably an argument for later in the child's life.

Sounds like your DP is trying to ensure that the child doesn't change.

Skribble · 17/11/2006 13:32

5 year old in an abbatoir? NO!

Explaining all about animals and how they are kept and why you are veggie. Fair enough.

Lots of options with regards to meat these days, you can buy direct from responsible farmers where animals are reared in a good healthy environment.

moljam · 17/11/2006 13:37

myself and my children are veggie,my dh isnt.however id never even consider letting my lo's visit an abbatoir,explain where meat comes from,take him to the butchers but not the abbatoir!

moljam · 17/11/2006 13:38

you can buy info for veggie children from viva i think.books etc

FrannyandZooey · 17/11/2006 13:38

Erm, joelallie, do you think that humans are carnivores?

Iklboo · 17/11/2006 13:40

You could always get veggie sausage, bacon etc and tell him it's "his" special meaty ones I suppose (if he's only saying he wants to eat meat to get a rise out of you)

Original poster
poppynic · 17/11/2006 13:41

FrannyandZooey - agree with your general post - when do you think is "old enough" to make their own decision - I really feel mean saying no to him. He's also not allowed to eat anything with gelatine, ie lots of lollies, most jellies and marshmellows which frequent fluffies (although they don't seem to be as prevalent here as in NZ). He's on the nursery veggie meal list and is really enjoying jelly which I'm sure they don't realise is not vegetarian - but I don't really think it's worth making a fuss - do you?

Blu, you're quite right about dp.

Iklboo - I'd quite like to do that actually (child labour concerns me more than meat tbh) - but that would make our carbon imprints (is that the term?) even worse. As it is, we will just say no to the most obvious brands. Fortunately ds currently has absolutely no idea about brands and is completely happy on his rusty old bike - as long as it has a basket and a decent horn.

Custardo - I'm afraid we certainly don't have that kind of relationship

OP posts:
moljam · 17/11/2006 13:42

if my veggie child was given something not veggie id make a fuss.is it you or your 5 year old that wants him to eat meat?

Tortington · 17/11/2006 13:43

you can't lie!

lying to a child is wrong

agree regarding link thing - my daughter went coluntarily veggie when she was 6 - for a year. which was cool with me.

i was a veggie whilst at university - was friends with somone who had links to the ALF.
but a bacon buttie a couple of years later - pissed up in france persuaded me or the error of my ways

and people saying - if your a veggie - why arnt you thin?

Iklboo · 17/11/2006 13:44

They do vegetarian jelly don't they? They use pectin instead of gelatin or something (sorry if that's not right?).
I think it's a shame that some children miss out on certain (every now and again) treats because their parents are veggie and manufacturers do not/will not produce veggie alternatives.

Eve · 17/11/2006 13:44

When I was little I was brought up on a farm. My sister and I used to fight to get to go with my dad to the abbatoir!

Abbatoirs aren't that horrid, they have very strick hygience guidelines to adhere to , there isn't blood and guts everywhere.

I also used to work in a chicken factory in summer hols and we had 1000's of chickens coming through each hour.

I now happily eat chicken and even look for that brand as I know the very strict growing , care and hygiene that goes into the growing and killing.

fannyannie · 17/11/2006 13:45

2hrs to prepare a feathery chicken - hmmm guess you don't do it very often then. It would probably take me about that long too - but if you know what you're doing you can have a feathery chicken, prepared cooked and on the table in not much more than 2hrs!

FrannyandZooey · 17/11/2006 13:46

Poppynic, I really don't know. Ds is 3.5 so not quite the same problem for me yet. I think to fully understand the issues, it would really have to be something like the legal age of criminal responsibility - don't actually know what age that is now - but I would think about 12 years old.

However I can see I will have to compromise on this, especially as dp does eat meat so that will be a factor in ds wanting to. I would think maybe 8 years old would be old enough? One of the girls I looked after when I was a nanny decided to stop eating meat when she was 8, so I guess it is not beyond a child to make that decision.

Whatever ds decides, I won't be cooking or buying meat for him. He can eat it out of the house, as dp does, if he chooses to when he is older.

lemonaid · 17/11/2006 13:46

why a father trying to bring his son up to follow his moral principles is being branded a control freak

I think partly because of the way it's being phrased in the OP -- poppynic doesn't share his views but he has "decreed" that their DS will be vegetarian, she's had to "ask" him (not agree with him) when DS will be "allowed" to decide for himself. And now that that point's been reached he's trying to unilaterally impose an additional condition. Now, obviously the language used reflects poppynic's view of the situation and her DH might phrase things differently, but it does seem as though he's coming across as at least a bit control-freaky to his own wife, who's actually living in the situation.