Entitled older men (with no kids) colonising the kids’ park. Help me kick them out!

[exox]

I’m putting this in Feminism because it’s about a group of entitled fucking men putting their convenience above the needs of others. I need your help to move them on.

Our local park is a big green space (about 3 football fields) containing a designated gated children’s play area. We (both female) come here with our DD (10) to play on the way to school. A small group of older men (60+), no kids with them, are meeting to exercise their dogs off leads inside the play park. I’ve told the council, but there’s no law against dogs off leads in play parks in our area.

When DW took DD there the other day, one of the dogs started running at her and wouldn’t come when called. (Dog wasn’t aggressive, but was very much NOT under control. We are used to dogs and don’t have a problem with dogs on leads in the playground with families, etc.)

DW asked them to leave, and they did, grumpily, but then started swearing about her and slagging off her appearance in our DD’s hearing.

So today, DW has parked up next to the playpark and the men were there again. DD refused to go in the park because of them - she didn’t want any conflict - and didn’t want DW to talk to them.

I’ve confronted them in the past and asked them to leave, and said that their presence deters others. They claim that they’d move if people wanted to come in, but the way the park is laid out, you can clearly see from a distance who’s in there. They just don’t get that their presence is putting people off using the space. And that because they’re not watching their dogs, the dogs could be merrily shitting in corners of the playground.

This is, for me, a feminist issue. These fuckers are taking up space that isn’t meant for them, purely because it’s convenient for them, and they don’t care how their presence affects others. This space is literally designed for children and those who care for them - in practice, in our area, this is primarily (but not exclusively) women. It’s the entitlement and literally taking up space that’s not meant for them that ENRAGES me.

I’ve told the council and nothing has happened. They’re talking about a ‘polite notice’ asking people to keep dogs on leads. That doesn’t address the problem.

I’m looking for (legal!) ideas to create positive change here, given that confronting them hasn’t changed their behaviour. I am SO angry!!!!

Well OP hasnt said if he’s fine with young women with dogs off lead

I Wouldn't be happy with either but I don’t water down the feminist fight

OP is a woman

Apologies OP for saying ‘he’
no offence intended

It looks to me as if the dog owners (who may not all be male, all the time) want a space where their dogs can run around, and the children's playground has a fence around it so that's what they use, especially if they arrive when there are no children in sight. If the park had a dog run area, perhaps the dog owners could be prevailed on to use it instead. But good luck on getting this town council to do anything so creative! Of course they have to consider what's worth spending the ratepayers' money on, or that's what they'd tell you.

What's the fucking matter with people on this thread?

You're like a howling mob, just because these blokes are in a bit of the park and the OP doesn't approve, people are suggesting posting on facebook implying they're paedophiles or shouting it at them.

You're ten times worse than they are, you bloody freaks!

Tell them it is weird for men without kids to hand about a childrens' play area, and it is putting people off bringing their kids. It may shame them - but probably won't.

I probably wouldn’t have put it like that 😆😆

but I agree

No, not as a howling mob but a pissed off woman fighting fire with fire.
They're probably not paedophiles, but they are taking up space that isn't for them and their dogs. As a lot of men feel entitled to do, in this and other arenas.
If a polite request to vacate is not merely ignored, but treated with insults and disrespect, as the OP described, then yeah, I would go for it.

As for the poor menz not having anywhere to go, there are (still) pubs, other areas of parks, other areas of public space, etc.

Sexual abuse of children is a very serious matter, and I really do frown at the idea of throwing accusations of it around just to get someone to stop doing something that annoys you (even if it does involve children, like use of a playground). It happens in reality far too much, without any need to imagine it anywhere it's not.

To be frank OP you don't know if the reason these men are in a play park is to watch children. Just because they are mature doesn't make them safe.
Post it on FB. It's not their space

Glad you cleared up that you're not a man because I was really struggling to believe it.

It doesn't matter how long they've been using it with no issues, it's a children's playground not a dog exercise area and a children's play area is not intended for men with dogs.

There aren't two sides to this story at all. If these men can't be arsed to train their dogs and want a fenced area to let them run around they need to either ask the council to put one in or pay for one. They are not entitled to take over the local play park just because this is the one local council in the UK that for some reason doesn't have a bylaw banning them.

They have been asked to leave by a parent due to their disobedient dogs and were then abusive.

But fucking hell some women will bend over backwards to defend horribly entitled, shitty men.

If you are a resident of the area concerned, rather than approach "The Council", approach a specific councillor responsible for the ward the playground is in. Tell them about the response you've had so far and why, irrespective of their being "no by-law" restricting it, the council should be enabling the area to be used for the purpose it was created: a children's safe playground. I doubt the MP will take it up, especially if you're not a constituent. I'd also consider writing a letter to your local paper about the issue and perhaps organising a group of mums and kids to go and claim the playground from the dogs and their owners.

The LA have the power to make a public spaces protection order (PSPO) which can exclude all dogs from a specific area. Your mp and/or local councillors should bring this up on your behalf.

OP was told these dog walkers ( which could be men or women as the dogs are the issue ) are allowed in there
so they are allowed in there

If anyone wants to change those local council rules they need to ask for it
OP would like them changed
The dog walkers don’t have an issue with it so why would they be the ones to ask.
That’s how it works for everything. Surely you are aware if you want changes you fight for them
All as I mentioned in a previous post if you rtft

although personally I’d rather get everyone including dog walkers on board and campaign together. I hope it’s not too late for that now

This is not about men in parks, it is about people with dogs exercising them in designated children’s play areas. I’m assuming it’s the dogs you object to rather than just the men, and that you’d feel the same way of the dog owners were female?

But it’s men, it’s always men! Being where they’re not wanted!

A dog doesn't have to be "dangerously" out of control, it just has to make someone think it is, see www.gov.uk/control-dog-public. The council absolutely can do something about this and is choosing not to. I assume there's no dog warden, OP?

Agree that it's worth approaching the local councillor too.

A play park is very clearly meant for children, not people with dogs.

They hardly need to congregate in a fenced-off area. Men have plenty of places to go - they can easily walk their dogs in the non-fenced off bit.

They really don't. Anywhere there is a group of say 4 or more men in a park, people get angsty.

Your fight is with the Council, who should be properly signposting the play area to remind dog owners that dogs are not allowed in there.

But OP says the dogs are allowed in there. That's the issue.

The issue is that they're within their rights to use it.

A dog doesn't have to be "dangerously" out of control, it just has to make someone think it is.

That's a weird turn of phrase. So you can be done for a crime you didn't commit if somebody else thinks you did?

I'd be infuriated too, this is not OK.

In my experience the council will generally ignore a lone complaint but if you can get a group of people to object they're much more likely to take action. Could you print up something and hand it out to other mums/carers in the playground area? Include an email address for the council ( a specific department and even a name to contact is best) plus any other easy way of contacting them and ask everyone to express their objections and ask for a "no dogs" policy.

You could take photos of the offending men or film them. It's not illegal to do this as I understand it, since you are in a public place ( by all means check this, it's not legal advice).
They won't like it of course but it might put them off! It means you have evidence of what's happening which may be useful. You could also tell them you're complaining to the council.

I second the idea of contracting the MP too, they will no doubt refer you to the council but never mind, the more fuss you make the better.

It's a chore doing all this but it may well get the results you want. Good luck!

Yes, this is my understanding, for example a farmer now has the right to shoot a dog they think may be worrying their sheep, if it is in their field and not on a short lead. The dog owner might take them to court but they still have a dead dog, don't they.

Could it not still constitute harassment to hassle and photo people who are going about their business and not breaking the law?

Our local park has a play area and a dog park. It's not difficult to sort out.