Entitled older men (with no kids) colonising the kids’ park. Help me kick them out!

[exox]

I’m putting this in Feminism because it’s about a group of entitled fucking men putting their convenience above the needs of others. I need your help to move them on.

Our local park is a big green space (about 3 football fields) containing a designated gated children’s play area. We (both female) come here with our DD (10) to play on the way to school. A small group of older men (60+), no kids with them, are meeting to exercise their dogs off leads inside the play park. I’ve told the council, but there’s no law against dogs off leads in play parks in our area.

When DW took DD there the other day, one of the dogs started running at her and wouldn’t come when called. (Dog wasn’t aggressive, but was very much NOT under control. We are used to dogs and don’t have a problem with dogs on leads in the playground with families, etc.)

DW asked them to leave, and they did, grumpily, but then started swearing about her and slagging off her appearance in our DD’s hearing.

So today, DW has parked up next to the playpark and the men were there again. DD refused to go in the park because of them - she didn’t want any conflict - and didn’t want DW to talk to them.

I’ve confronted them in the past and asked them to leave, and said that their presence deters others. They claim that they’d move if people wanted to come in, but the way the park is laid out, you can clearly see from a distance who’s in there. They just don’t get that their presence is putting people off using the space. And that because they’re not watching their dogs, the dogs could be merrily shitting in corners of the playground.

This is, for me, a feminist issue. These fuckers are taking up space that isn’t meant for them, purely because it’s convenient for them, and they don’t care how their presence affects others. This space is literally designed for children and those who care for them - in practice, in our area, this is primarily (but not exclusively) women. It’s the entitlement and literally taking up space that’s not meant for them that ENRAGES me.

I’ve told the council and nothing has happened. They’re talking about a ‘polite notice’ asking people to keep dogs on leads. That doesn’t address the problem.

I’m looking for (legal!) ideas to create positive change here, given that confronting them hasn’t changed their behaviour. I am SO angry!!!!

Thanks. I did complain via the council but nothing meaningful has happened, so I’ll get in touch via the councillor this time.

I don’t see this as a man issue, an age issue or a feminist issue

Whilst these are men and you say the parents are women it’s irrelevant

I certainly wouldn’t be posting any Facebook comment about old men in children’s play areas and to watch out. Thats suggests some sort of perversion and you should avoid defamation, harrassment and bullying because they could be seen as illegal

This is an issue of dogs off lead in a play area

I would imagine they are using the play area so their dogs can run around off lead within a contained area. So rather than complain about the current situation ,which the council say is not illegal, why not find a solution

I would
Ask the council to create another fenced off area specifically for the off lead dogs. You could get together with others on local Facebook pages to raise funds and campaign with the local MP.

That way you are making a positive contribution for everyone rather than
making this all about old men and dividing a community. Which it could be if you start posting on FB

Just to add - I would focus on dogs v children as opposed to men v women & children. Much less divisive and you are much more likely to be successful.in getting your council to ban dogs from a play area than to ban men.

Most people in this country are not very fond of groups of men without children hanging around in children's play areas. But trying to get the council to take any action will take months - your daughter will have started secondary school before anything is resolved.

I think I would take the approach of strength in numbers. These men will be rude to a solo woman and her daughter but if you could get two or three mums (or one dad because we know that will be all it takes for them to leave politely) to turn up regularly you would feel more confident about confronting them.

Thanks for this. I won’t be posting anything on FB because I don’t use it at all, I don’t believe in public shaming and I don’t want to stir up division or hatred (although I understand the impulse.) I DO think it’s a feminist issue; this is a group of men using a space that is not designed for them, and they’re not listening to women who are asking them to leave. They’re wilfully ignorant about reasons why women might feel uncomfortable walking into an enclosed space where a group of men are congregating with their dogs. Strategically, though, that’s not where I’ll go with councillors. I don’t think mentioning their sex or age is the way to effect change. Better signage, a change in by-laws and a designated dog exercise area would go a long way to sorting the issue, but I’m airing this on the Feminist board because this is everyday sexism in action.

Id be very careful about putting pictures up or suggesting they are there for perverse reasons.

This happened recently in our local area and some men went down there and beat the shit out of 3 men.

Turns out they were part of a park run group and had fallen behind on the run as first timers and got a bit turned around.

I have a massive problem with men in spaces not for them but I would draw the line at suggestions of shouting p words at them.

Start a campaign, talk to an MP. I know its more women having to do the work but its the only way it will change.

I don’t have a problem confronting them, to be honest. They do leave, grumbling and swearing, and reconvene on the other side of the railings being offensive. I agree that more families turning up would force them out, but sadly I don’t think I’ll be able to corral a group - we’re unusual in going to the park before school and I don’t think many people would rejig their morning to join us.

If you removed the dogs you'd still have a problem.

Perhaps they have been using it for a long time
and have had no issues in the past
Has snyone even asked ??

You see There’s entitled and there’s entitled
Perhaps if Theyve been using it for years they see these parents as ‘coming in here and throwing them off’ and being entitled.
There are two sides to this
Your dw isn’t even from the area
so
If you want a peaceful conclusion its important to look at this from all perspectives

( Im not an old man by the way I’m a mother but I also don’t see that I have any right to start pushing people around. I also don’t agree dogs should be in play areas, on or off lead. )

It would have been wise imo to talk to local councillors and find out your rights before telling people to leave an area which they have every right to be in.
I think the parents have now created a difficult division

Find a positive solution for everyone and engage with the community

Or the men who have been asked to leave an area, and are exercising their dogs in a kids area (which most people would understand is a problem even if allowed), Could do the leg work and petition for change and work on not causing bad feelings in the community. Just a thought.

The slight problem here, I think, is that men generally have few places to gather outside and no matter where they go in a park, people are likely to be concerned, because they will be near football games, picnics etc. Maybe ask the council to put a men's shed type initiative in locally

I agree they shouldn’t be there but OP has been told they can
Which is why they are

As I said
If they’ve been using the area for a long time it’s not up to them to push for something seperate. It’s up to those who don’t want them in there. Why should the dog walkers do the leg work they ( according to the council) are doing Nothing wrong and are within their rights

If you want change it’s those that want it that should do the leg work. That’s just logic

Had it been me I wouldn’t have tried to throw them out. I would have researched my rights first and then
without prior confrontation they would be more likely to bring the dog walkers on board in a joint campaign
Working together

Lets hope OP can get that to work

Just a thought, although I have never dealt with anything like this so forgive me if this is a daft idea.

Does your area have local PCSOs or a police- school liaison officer? (If yes the school office will have liaison contact details). If it's affecting the nearby primary school pupils, might it be worth trying to tackle it from an intimidation/feeling threatened angle? The kids being prevented from using an area which is actually for them.

Linking this email by ccing in with the local councillor & MP may cause enough of a stir for them to do something.

Just to answer some specifics in a couple of posts.

I first confronted them about this five years ago, when I lived two streets away. We haven’t used the play park in the mornings until recently, when our morning routine changed. It’s perfectly possible that no one else has asked them to leave except me, but that doesn’t make this socially acceptable behaviour, even if it’s not illegal.

We now live 0.7 miles from the park, just over the constituency boundary. This is our nearest park, and it’s next to our kid’s school. I think you’d be hard pushed to say we don’t live in the area, just because we have a different MP.

The council says they are supposed to have dogs under control, which these guys didn’t, and that’s what my DW challenged them on. The dogs didn’t come when they were called. They ran at her and DD.

Women are socialised to acquiesce and I’m not having it. I wasn’t rude; I was assertive. I didn’t say they had no right to be there or try to ‘throw them out’, I said that them being in the kids’ park with dogs off leads would put people off coming in. (I didn’t mention before that one of them had wrapped the dog lead around the gate/gatepost to keep it shut, because they don’t do this every time.)

After my DW asked them to get their dogs, the men left the play park with the dogs and went to stand on the other side of the fence (despite having a huge green space to walk them in), badmouthing my DW and swearing about her in my child’s hearing.

Just because something is not illegal doesn’t make it socially acceptable. Especially when it stops children from being able to play safely.

I haven’t started a war. This is all very low key. It may literally affect no one except us. I haven’t got a vendetta against these men, I would just like them to understand that their behaviour is having a negative impact on others and to adjust their behaviour accordingly. They are getting their needs met at others’ expense.

This is two women standing up (separately, on different occasions) to challenge a group of men who think their comfort and convenience trumps everyone else’s. In the long term, standing up and trying to do something about this WILL benefit the community more than politely saying nothing. I agree that I need to be pragmatic.

I will not have our DD growing up to think it’s ok for people to take up spaces not designed for them and to intimidate women into not using them.

Great idea! Thanks!

This isn’t the issue here, though. They’re using it explicitly as a place to exercise their dogs off the lead. There are loads of other men and women walking their dogs in the green space. It’s generally a really friendly space. There are quite a few groups of other male dog owners who congregate in the green space, and that’s really nice to see.

I'm just not entirely clear if your problem is with the dogs or the men.

I would have a problem if a group of men with no kids were hanging out in a children’s play area. What I do have is a problem with a group of men exercising dogs off leads in a children’s play area.

It’s not a dogs-or-men issue.

Just wanted to say thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

I need to log off for a while.

Cheers, all.

@MrsPapillon this is genius!

If it was a group of young women
Exercising their dogs is that OK?
because it sounds like your bigger concern is the fact that they are men and as you know we can’t ban men from public areas

Tbh you haven’t really answered @Arran2024 s question

So what is the issue
Their sex
Their age
Their dogs

If it’s just the dogs I get it. Not that I agree with your families approach but dogs off lead as a complaint to local authorities is a good start

Report them tpo the police for using language intended to alarm/distress/intimidate you

Don’t do this,

Just get all the kids to shout peeeedo at them. They’ll soon move on

It’s a blatant power imbalance… therefore a feminist issue