Women who are misogynists and how to navigate

[Simplifying]

Title explains my reasons for posting. I think, I know quite well by now, how to deal with man who hate women.

How do I navigate women in all areas of life who hold contempt towards me and other women when it's clear it is as a result of being a by-product of misogyny?

A Cocklodger is a man who happily doesn't work at all or do housework, not a SAHD

I have been accused of being a misogynist on MN a few times. I am a woman.
I am a simple soul and I judge things as I see or hear them. I am not interested in dancing on the head of a pin about whether victim or survivor is more misogynist or whether women should get special treatment because of x, y or z. Nor do I believe my sympathies should automatically lie with other women if I think they are being ridiculous or unfair.
In my opinion, a whole industry has built up which has a vested interest in keeping sexism alive and well, and twisting things to fit their agenda is very much in their interests.
As far as I am concerned (as I said, I am a simple soul), the fact it has never crossed my 19-year-old daughter's mind that she can't do anything she wants to and men do not have to be part of any plan she may have mean I am happy the battle has been won.
Arguing about eg men who talk loudly in coffee shops is just plan daft and I have no idea why people waste their time getting so het up about essentially nothing.

But a man who only worked PT and lived off his partner's salary would be branded a cocklodger.

Indeed. It's just makes women look a bit trite when they write articles about men sitting with their legs too far apart on the bus etc. Men aren't writing articles whinging about having to sit next to women who wear too much perfume etc.

The term is used for men who who move in, do nothing in terms of children, housework and then give up work without prior agreement and then refuse to work. It's not used for SAHD or where there is a prior agreement that this could be the way they live. Women wouldn't be on here complaining about men like that so I think you might have misunderstood the term.

Yeah this never happens:)

I think that it is natural to have dislike and contempt for men AND women in different ways, and many people display both misogyny and misandry in varying degrees, because as human beings we naturally stereotype and group things together (which is how we see the world) and sex based definitions are one of the defining ways we see and understand the world and behaviour within it.

Your daughter may get a real shock!

Why should she? I'm nearly 60 and I can't say I've ever felt particularly held back by being a woman in a traditional men's industry.
As I've said, a whole industry has built up around convincing women they are life's perpetual victims and encouraging them to see problems which may never happen.

I was at a pub quiz last week and the men on our table just assumed control. I didn't just sit back and allow it, though the other women did. I knew lots of answers these men didn't but they simply ignored me -at first- and were throwing around utter guesses with astonishing confidence.

It's small stuff like this that women experience, no matter how hard you rail against it. I had a big job in a male dominated field. I think that's much easier to deal with than the smaller stuff.

But I've known women like this too. I suppose what irks me is that women's quirks and habits are tolerated but men's are seen as some failing of the whole species, not just an individual being annoying/irritating/abusive.
In your example, surely the women could shout the men down equally? Sitting back then reframing situations as being a victim when the solution is within your grasp is somewhat pathetic tbh.

I didn't sit back but anyway the point I'm making is that a lot of men behave like this without thinking. These women were socialised to defer - that's a different issue. But the point I'm making is that you can be as bold as you like as a woman and still, without your buy in, you will be ignored, patronised, judged, over charged...

We had an estate agent talk only to my husband the whole visit- we went with a different agency but still. Then the car salesman....

Invisible women is a good book. It got me thinking about areas of misogyny which are not necessarily intended but just an inevitable consequence of a white, average height (for a man) male being seen as the "norm" even though that's less than half of the population.

Things I'd never noticed till I read that.

In my male dominated industry, I've only once been given women's fit shoes. I'd normalised going down a size because I was always offered "unisex" shoes which aren't unisex, their men's sizing.

When I do half marathons, more than half have had a t-shirt at the end which is "unisex". I then have to try and work out if it is "unisex" also known as man's sizing so need to get a size which will fit over my chest but not elsewhere and probably go down to a small. (I'm a size 14, I'm not small). I'm not especially bothered but it's not like running for women is unusual.

Then there are drugs. Until I think the 90s, there was no requirement to test drugs on women. We are too "complex" apparently because of our hormones. But that means that some drugs just don't work on us. Or give more side effects.

Then all of this is long before the joy of perimenopause. I'm sure this will not surprise anyone who is or was going through this. A survey in 2021 found that

"41% of the 32 medical schools who responded did not have a mandatory menopause education program for their students."

Survey – Menopause Training in Medical Schools – menopausesupport.co.uk

Even if this has got better since (and I'm not entirely sure it has) imagine how many GPs who have qualified have next to zero knowledge on something HALF of their patients will go through?

I'm not talking about SAHDs. A woman with grown up children who doesn't work full time isn't a SAHM!

It's defo strange how car matters seem to automatically be deferred to men. It's not like most women can't change a tyre or a spark plug is it?

I really don't see how a woman can be misogynistic, doesn't that mean they hate themselves? Of course not all women love all other women (or men), but they are entitled to their opinion, why do you think it's misogynistic? Do you like all other women?

Internalised misogyny isn't about liking or not liking individual women . Its about absorbing sexist beliefs and then putting them onto all women as a whole.

I was a civil engineer Back in the day I could hold my own against all the male engineers and I worked on sites a lot, most of the men on site were great. Never had a problem although a few were very surprised when they realised they were working with me you just have to show you know what you are doing.

I think women internalise misogyny to cope with living in the patriarchy. Like, for example, women who flirt with male bosses and compete with other women to get male attention or approval, throwing other women under the bus or upholding those systems that are regressive. Or those women I mentioned upthread, on Facebook saying that women complaining about male harassment can't take a joke and should be flattered by the attention.

Does that make them a misogynist? I'm not sure but they are supporters of the patriarchy, and this helps oppress their own sex.

I had a job in a very male environment, I could deal with them all without resorting to flirting. There weren't really many other women around and I wouldn't have thrown them under the bus. And this was years ago, I think you are behind the times.

Sometimes women feel they have to join in with male sexist banter just to be 'one of the boys' in a bid to get accepted

Banter is just banter sometimes a bit risque, male, female a bit of fun, if it isn't fun you shut it down. Women can be just as bad as men, when I worked in a factory when I was quite young the things the women would say would make your hair curl, and the men blush.

No, I'm not. I've done the same as you, worked in male environments in the past and behaved without throwing women under the bus. I am also observing in my current workplace, which is very mixed in terms of balance of the sexes, some very regressive behaviour from younger women and poor behaviour from older men.

Which incidentally is kinda like toxic masculinity - e.g. the belief that men who show their emotions are weak.

Although I often find myself rolling my eyes when toxic masculinity is discussed. Typically, the types of women that wang on about it are the types who also love opining about how much worse women have it, which kinda shuts down the discussion about men's problems.

It's like "oh, well it's not our fault men can't express their emotions. It's toxic masculinity! But dontcha know we actually have it way worse than the poor wickle menz. Cry me a river! Now where did I put my Male Tearz mug?" 🤣