Women who are misogynists and how to navigate

[Simplifying]

Title explains my reasons for posting. I think, I know quite well by now, how to deal with man who hate women.

How do I navigate women in all areas of life who hold contempt towards me and other women when it's clear it is as a result of being a by-product of misogyny?

Certainly on Mumsnet there are plenty of examples where women are expected to be responsible and often moderate men’s behaviour in big and small ways. Is that what you mean?

It is often internalised and hard to counteract. Yes to a pj's suggestion of asking questions or reframung, "so you think a woman deserves to be attacked if drunk or wearing a short skirt?".

I have a friend who is the kind of woman who can hold her own, comfortable in male environments etc. The result is that she can sometimes be a bit dismissive of women who are less comfortable. I regularly say things to her like, "so a woman must simply be able to take the joke'? Why do you think its on her to take it and not on men not to say it?". And to her credit, she listens. But its hard. She's bringing up her daughters to thrive in that environment and I partly respect that and partly find it frustrating. I want the girls to play golf if they want to, but i cant tell if they really do or would rather do something else.

I do see where you're coming from, it is often used as a term by some in an effort to undermine or lessen the extent of the abuse. However, as a human, I am a survivor. I've suffered and come out the other side from other trauma unrelated to DV.

Yes. Having to stroke a man's ego or lessen his burdens. Not giving a fuck about my feelings or burdens.

I think accusing others of internalised misogyny has been weaponised in some areas. I don't want to take this to a side bar but there are some topics, I'm sure you can get which, where if you don't agree with some feminists, you must have internalised misogyny.

Well yes we all do to a degree but doesn't mean I have to agree with you. It's that kind of absolutist thinking that we should be able to escape should we not? So we can make our own life choices. Which, after all, is the point of feminism I think.

And I think to add to that, the conversation is much the same about "victim" or "survivor". I have my views on why survivor is seen as more socially acceptable by some but I have no concerns with you or others using it, if it speaks to you. What I object to is "that's not the right term" attitude from some.

The right term is the term I choose, especially when I'm applying it to me. Who is more qualified to know?

My MIL has raging misogyny. Feminists are ridiculous as they are not equal workers, women’s sport shouldn’t be on tv as they aren’t fun to watch as they’re clearly not as good as men, women shouldn’t report rape if they were dressed provocatively. She always gives her points and asks me to agree with her, looking for my validation. I usually just say “No, I disagree” I really can’t be bothered to argue points which are so blatantly wrong and actually so immensely stupid. I guess I find it easier to deal with as the misogyny is never directed to me personally, I can do no wrong in her eyes, bizarrely.
The thing is, she generally hates everyone, she’s a very unhappy woman and as I’ve known her 30yrs now, I know there’s nothing I can say to address it. I generally feel sorry for her. There are lots of reasons for this, which have recently come to light, which is why my DH spiralled into depression too, it has been a hard road but we are coming through it now, hopefully my MIL can heal too.

Light bulb moment… Maybe I’m harbouring some misogyny myself if I would make the effort to defend myself but not women kind. I defend women if men say something misogynistic, but I don’t when a woman does, I assign my own assumed reasons for it. Bloody hell, uncomfortable self reflection!

My thinking too. The term internalised misogyny can indeed be used as weapon to undermine and deflect.

No one is qualified to tell me that calling myself a survivor based on my right to exist is misogynistic. Its based on my inherent right to call myself human/a living creature. Any animal, living creature, has that same right to survive.

"No one is qualified to tell me that calling myself a survivor based on my right to exist is misogynistic." - I didn't.

My own DM had some outdated views on gender roles and how to dim yourself to comfort men's egos. Many of her struggles, ironically, were a direct result of misogyny and the patriarchal system.

No, you didn't. I was elaborating on your point, which I agree with. Sorry I didn't make that clear in my reply.

My own DM is usually good, she’s one of 3 sisters and she only had daughters, so hasn’t had much misogyny in her own homes, that helps.

My MIL had an abusive mother, who took most of her frustrations out on her only son. My MIL was the eldest so was very protective of her brother, I think it stems from their relationship, even though I’ve never heard him say anything misogynistic.

Survivor doesn't mean healed, it just means lived it

But that’s not how it’s used and applied in this context. It’s another way of weaponising misogyny.

Well, that's how I've applied to myself. And as PP notes, it doesn't mean I'm healed from DA.

I find it so strange that you’ve started a thread about misogyny and yet are not prepared to consider how the words you use are contributing to misogyny. I’ll bow out here because it’s clear this thread is not about misogyny at all.

Why are you being so hostile so a thread full of women? It’s undermining your point somewhat

I don't see the need to police other people's language on "survivor" or "victim" but I do agree that there is almost a relief felt by people who have not experienced SV in believing that there is some post traumatic growth after rape which is implied, by some, by using the term "survivor".

Language is complex though and those are my beliefs about it but it doesn't make them true. Likewise, use what you want as long as you're using it to define yourself and not others.

There is so much nowadays which is entrenched nowadays. People treating things as "fact" which are anything but. I think we all have to stay curious and learning to minimise the amount of internalised bigotry we have (of any kind). And what goes with that is listening to others. I've learned from this thread that other people don't see a term the same as me and that's helpful.

The only women I’ve met like that are my mother’s generation- 65+ I’ve never met a younger women with those views. The reason some younger women don’t like other women is cos they feel threatened by them imo, not cos they’re misogynists. It’s a generation thing i suspect. Women over 70 were brought up to believe all these things (I’m not saying all older women have these views but some do) I guess the values and the world you were brought up in can be hard to shake for some people. I was having a conversation with my 65 yr old aunt the other day. She said something along the lines of, “in my day it was normal to get a pinch on the bum at work or feel your boss’s hand slide onto your thigh under the table during a meeting, we just used to give them a slap on the hand, it was annoying but women these days are making far too much of a fuss about it”. I tried explaining why it’s so bloody important to make a fuss about it but she was having none of it! 🙄

You certainly see misogyny in full flow whenever someone talks about sexual assault by healthcare providers- a rare but important and real experience for some people (male and female).

If the person discussing an assault is female straight away it’s presumed that the woman is delusional/ the problem/needs to get over herself as why would a doctor (insert whatever category you like) be bothered risking their reputation etc. for YOU.

Well, they do.

Just under 9 million pounds in legal costs for sexual assault or “sexual misconduct” as it gets toned down descriptively, in 9 years.

Thats a particular gripe for me as I’m one of those people but not counted in those figures as they didn’t compensate me.

Their defence to my claims - she’s lying. Or if she’s not lying she’s delusional. Why? Because the man says he didn’t mean to touch her. but he doesn’t even describe how he did touch her and no-one asked him properly either.

You see these responses every time a thread of this type comes up on Mumsnet. Barely anyone ever agrees with the poster who knows what happened to them and posters fall over themselves to insist it is alleged because the woman has some kind of mental health issues (when did depression after assault cause delusions?).

Obviously that’s a fairly niche topic but it always highlights certain tropes about “unhinged” women etc..

I have a bit more understanding and patience for this shit (because it’s still complete bs), than the victim blaming bs that only the giggly girls and the “unserious “ women got that type of treatment, because you know , it would never happen to a respectable, serious woman. 🙄

It's very common. Lots of women couldn't really give a shit about patriarchal fallout. They're happy to stay in their allotted lane.

I've been a brick-throwing feminist since the 70's and I see so many among my peers who wouldn't dream of speaking up for women's rights and think women like me should be silenced and should just go away and stop being a nuisance.

I think they're terrified of the truth.

Usually, you can make your own choices. As long as it doesn't involve living off a man! 😆

However, the man doesn't usually get the choice to live off a woman. He'll most often be branded a cocklodger and the divorce rates are much higher for SAHDs and men that earn less than their spouse.

If you want to fight fire with fire, every time one of them says how amazing some chappie is/what some incredible act of wonderfulness this one has done, reply with "not all men...." 😁