Do male nurses ask to wash female hospital patients?

[PrinceRegentLady]

Asking because of a comment I saw on a thread about the M&S changing room issue. The comment reminded me of an experience of my own.

My question is: is it considered acceptable, in terms of professional behaviour, for a male nurse (just a bog standard male, I’m not thinking about transgender people here, that’s a whole different issue) to approach a frail female hospital patient, alone, out of the blue, & ask her if she wants HIM to help her wash her body in the shower? (I do not mean to ask generally if she wants help washing, which could come from anyone - but to ask if HE specifically can help her wash in the shower.)

Or is this only done, in the case of a female patient, by a female nurse?

And whatever the answer to this is, what should it be?

most washing is done by hca’s and most hca’s are female, male hca’s who’ll be in demand

Sorry I don't have an answer - I'd just like to say that I very much hope that male nurses aren't allowed to wash/dry/toilet whatever female patients unless the patient has specifically said he may. After all, in some cases the patient wouldn't be in a position to KNOW what he was doing!

Was he a staff nurse, was this patient allocated to him, were the other staff busy with other patients, when was the last time she had a shower, has she ever refused a shower and the staff asked for his help, no, female nurses are not the only staff who help female patients have a wash/bath/shower/toilet. Is this what happened to you?

What about male patients? They are almost always washed by female staff.

You can decline a caregiver or specific care by a caregiver but technically if you are speaking of a nurse (not aide or tech) he / she doesn’t need permission to care for a female patient. This can be as simple as giving medications to chest tube catheter care or sedation and airway management. They are licensed to provide care with respect to the patient and assigned to patients of both sexes. I’m my 40 yrs exp male nurses rarely are in or stay in positions where they would be giving a patient a shower/ bath. Also real hospital life is so incorrectly portrayed in movies. In a hospital which has all appropriate safeguards and credentials in place you never take care of a patient in a vacuum There are always other care givers in and out of the room. A classic is the disturbed woman posing as an ob nurse who helps birth a baby down a dark hallway with absolutely no one around and then steals the baby This could never happen. Good nurses learn early on ways to care for opposite sex patients while maintaining their privacy and confidentiality and comfort and with appropriate level of expertise in care

Of course it’s fine. They are trained medical professionals, who have been intensively DBS checked and continually monitored for their behaviour and professional standards. If the patient was to say no, then that is also fine and a female member of staff would be found and jobs would be reallocated to make the workload fair. Don’t be ridiculous.

You do know that it’s overwhelmingly mostly men that commit violence against women don't you? Your comment is a completely false equivalent. FWIW, my DH had to have an internal scan of his bladder a few weeks ago and he was dreading the radiographer being a bloke because he felt a female might be more gentle, and that he’d feel less embarrassed in front of a female.

Yes, male nurses and HCAs will often provide personal care for female patients. Same as carers in the community and residential/ nursing homes. You can ask and have a preference for female staff to provide care but obviously it can be tricky due to staffing levels and who is on duty. Female staff to personal care on men more often than the other way round.

When I was a staff nurse female nurses washed male and female patients. Males only washed males. Don’t know if it’s changed since then. Mind you there are male midwives aren’t there? Doesn’t get more intimate

My MIL was in a rehab unit following a fall, early stages of dementia. One visit she send DH out to get her a drink and quickly mentioned to me that she was unhappy about one of the male HCAs being there when she had a shower but she was scared to say anything because she didn’t want to upset him. I then spoke to the manager about this, who was lovely and said of course she’d make sure only female staff would provide intimate care. BTW, there were always 2 staff present for such procedures. When it’s the male member of staff asking if you mind, some people are so conditioned to not upset others that they’d say it was OK. Vulnerable patients should NEVER be put in that position.

Very interesting thanks. Yes, this question does reflect an incident that took place, where the female person asked felt intimidated & embarrassed to refuse. (Context was a single room, with attached shower, not a ward.)

My own view is that women are very highly conditioned not to assert personal barriers, & for that reason an enquiry (eg ‘Would you like some help in the shower? And if so would it be ok to have a male nurse/hca?’ ) should always come from another woman. Particularly so given that a female patient to whom this question is directed may be confused, vulnerable etc.

I recall that when I saw a gynae a few years ago I was asked in advance (by female nurse) if a male was ok (it was). But it was my choice.

Of course they do!!! I have know many a female patient particularly ask for the 'nice young male nurse' to take her to toilet or give a bed bath. I have known some cracking male nurses who all have always made sure that the women they treat fully consent before they give personal care. Quite often they would be helped by/or helping another member of staff give washes and usually that other member of staff was female.

The comments that suggest that all men in caring roles are perverts, are what keeps men out of caring roles. There are bad people in all walks of life but I must admit I saw far more abusive female nurses than men in the 10 years I was on the wards.

All the male nurses and HCAs I know would never put themselves in a position where it could even be claimed they committed abuse and are so careful to ensure they have consent and female chaperones.

When I was a student nurse, in the dark ages, we were taught that respecting patients wishes was very important and that before any procedure, such as a bed bath to actively seek permission. For example, "hello Mrs x, I'm nurse y and I've come to offer you a bedbath. Is that okay ?"

If for whatever reason the patient objected to a particular member of staff, then if possible another one was found. If no one was available then they were given the option to proceed with the original staff member or not at all.

I assume it's the same now.

One thing I found v interesting in comments above was the ‘don’t be ridiculous’ comment.

Many years ago (decades ago! I am old now!) I was treated by a male GP in a way I found upsetting. (Basically I was 20 & staying with a friend; had chest infection I think, maybe throat, difficult to remember now; went as temporary patient to local GP; he saw me in evening out of hours & insisted on giving me -alone with him - long & quite painful vaginal examination to ensure I was ‘not pregnant’ before prescribing me antibiotics. (There was no suggestion I was pregnant or any reason I might have been -I wasn’t even sexually active.) At the time I found it upsetting - but it was only years later that it struck me- what was that about? I note no other GP has ever insisted on putting his hand inside me before prescribing antibiotics! And can a manual vaginal examination even reveal early stage pregnancy?)

I still don’t know the answer to that, but the point is that the intimate & trusting relationship between healthcare provider & patient is one that is very capable of being exploited in individual cases, when women are young/ill/vulnerable/ashamed. And yet women are still criticised (‘don’t be ridiculous’) for expressing concerns. As though all men must automatically be above suspicion. Why?

I don't think that a male HCA/nurse is doing anything wrong by asking if they consent to him helping them with their personal care.

I would be more concerned if they just cracked on without asking

I've seen four gynaecologists in the past 13 years (all NHS) and never once been asked whether I am OK being seen by a male consultant or registrar. Nor asked whether I am OK with a male radiographer carrying out internal gynae ultrasounds. I would not expect to be asked, either. On the occasions where the radiographer has been male there has always been a chaperone present.

DS2 is a nurse. When he was a student a lot of older, not being ageist that’s who it tended to be, ladies used to ask for the “nice young man” to help them have a wash. Quite often they’d decline help from others because they’d want him to do it. I’m not sure he actually went into showers with them, though.

He doesn’t do any washing of anyone anymore, he’s a specialist nurse so it’s not in his job, but he always asks for consent regardless of what he’s doing. He got quite annoyed when DFIL away in hospital and nurses would just come and do things to him without saying what they were doing or asking if it was ok. It’s such bad practice.

I’m sorry this happened to you. It sounds like sexual assault not medical care. Do think about whether you need more support or might want to report this as an inappropriate behaviour.

Re patients not liking to say they object to male staff doing their intimate care, many years ago when I had my 1st child, a male student nurse doing his gynae placement was on the ward. He was really creepy and made some cringey comments. In the postnatal ward one day, the sister came to check us all over, including our stitches. The creepy nurse was with her and she asked if we minded him looking. We all said we did mind and she was not happy, she was old school and of the opinion that patients do as they're told.

People did tend to grit their teeth and put up with things like that.

Just to clarify: I'm not saying female patients shouldn't have a choice about whether they are OK being examined or receiving care from male consultants, male nurses, male HCPs or male sonographers but that I have never been asked whether I am OK with this.

Presumably that applies to male patients putting female staff at risk

Last time I was in hospital , most of the clinical care assistants doing personal care were young men , they were just assigned to beds .Fortunately I managed my own personal care .

Women have a spelled-out legal right to request same-sex for intimate care. Predators will take advantage of access to prey. Not all males are predators, but the entire point of taking precautions, including making laws and policies and rules, is to protect all prey, all the time, from even one predator.

When I was in hospital in Switzerland, I was given a bedpan and wiped by a male nurse. It was not regarded as a problem just as it's not a problem for a female nurse to deal with a male patient. It was a bit of a surprise but I just got on with it!

There is some false equivalence, in some reasoning, because men don't fear women (or children) will overpower them, or assault them for any reason in any circumstances. Women (and children) need to be protected from all men, because any one man may do just that.

Therefore, a male patient will have no fear of either a male or a female nurse, (nor, if a woman patient is put on his ward, will he be scared to fall asleep) but a female patient will, for sensible and legally accepted reasons request women-only wards and women-only staff.

(In certain circumstances if only a male practitioner is available, the patient may choose to wait, or to accept the male attendant, but in that case, must be protected by a female chaperone, who could be a non-qualified staff, or the patient's own relative, for reassurance of all parties.)