Do male nurses ask to wash female hospital patients?

[PrinceRegentLady]

Asking because of a comment I saw on a thread about the M&S changing room issue. The comment reminded me of an experience of my own.

My question is: is it considered acceptable, in terms of professional behaviour, for a male nurse (just a bog standard male, I’m not thinking about transgender people here, that’s a whole different issue) to approach a frail female hospital patient, alone, out of the blue, & ask her if she wants HIM to help her wash her body in the shower? (I do not mean to ask generally if she wants help washing, which could come from anyone - but to ask if HE specifically can help her wash in the shower.)

Or is this only done, in the case of a female patient, by a female nurse?

And whatever the answer to this is, what should it be?

There are bad people in all walks of life but I must admit I saw far more abusive female nurses than men in the 10 years I was on the wards.

Well, women commit the majority of child abuse and surprisingly most studies seem to suggest they're the main perpetrators of domestic abuse too (however, it's hard to say for sure due to the widely acknowledged issue of men being very reluctant to report to the police).

However, men commit the vast majority of sex crimes so the above tends not to get discussed and most people aren't even aware of the facts.

@MoneyTaIks any sources for this information? It goes against everything I have learned in 40 years of reading about DV and working with it's victims would be interested to know.

Women's bodies are not an equal opportunities site for men. Not when we live in a society, and have a health service (see stats quoted above) where sexual abuse against women is rife.

What happened to you 20 years ago with your GP is sexual assault.

You should report this to the police and also the GMC

Sorry, took a while to find the original thread I'd read it on.

The Partner Abuse State of Knowledge is a research organisation comprised of over 100 academics from 20 universities across UK/Canada/USA. They're responsible for conducting the biggest metastudy of peer reviewed DV studies to date. They looked at 12,000 previous studies, writing summaries of 1,700 of them, all of which were peer reviewed.

Some of their findings were that:

• Higher victimization for male than female high school students
• Rates of female-perpetrated violence higher than male-perpetrated (28.3% vs. 21.6%)
• Wide range in perpetration rates: 1.0% to 61.6% for males; 2.4% to 68.9% for women,
• More women (23%) than men (19.3%) have been assaulted at least once in their lifetime.
• Among large population samples, 57.9% of IPV reported was bi-directional, 42% unidirectional; 13.8% of the unidirectional violence was male to female (MFPV), 28.3% was female to male (FMPV)
• Male and female IPV perpetrated from similar motives – primarily to get back at a partner for emotionally hurting them, because of stress or jealousy, to express anger and other feelings that they could not put into words or communicate, and to get their partner’s attention.
• None of the studies reported that anger/retaliation was significantly more of a motive for men than women’s violence; instead, two papers indicated that anger was more likely to be a motive for women’s violence as compared to men.
• Jealousy/partner cheating seems to be a motive to perpetrate violence for both men and women.

https://domesticviolenceresearch.org/

My experience is that they ask and if you are OK they start the bed bath and then when they get to the intimate areas they ask again if you want to do that area yourself.

Here's some more.....

I'm just cutting and pasting from a previous thread for those that want to read, I didn't research all this myself.

My understanding is that crime figures show just shy of 30% of victims being male, but charities including Mankind have done extensive research on reporting disparity by sex and claim that men are around 2.5x less likely to report DV.

Reasons given were fear of not being taken seriously by authorities and friends, no point in reporting as no facilities/help in their area, fear of being separated from children/made homeless, and the male aversion to being seen as 'weak'. With Mankind specifically the majority of callers answered that they wouldn't have called if the service wasn't anonymous, so this suggests they haven't reported it to authorities either.

So nobody really knows. The annual government crime report shows women as the principle victims whilst thousands of peer reviewed studies either show it to be very close or men to be slightly more likely to be victimised.

The theory that women perpetrate intimate partner violence at roughly similar rates as men has been termed "gender symmetry". The earliest empirical evidence of gender symmetry was presented in the 1975 U.S. National Family Violence Survey carried out by Murray A. Straus and Richard J. Gelles on a nationally representative sample of 2,146 "intact families". The survey found 11.6% of women and 12% of men had experienced some kind of intimate partner violence in the last twelve months, also 4.6% of men and 3.8% of women had experienced "severe" intimate partner violence.

Since 1975, numerous other empirical studies have found evidence of gender symmetry in intimate partner violence. For example, in the United States, the National Comorbidity Study of 1990-1992 found 18.4% of men and 17.4% of women had experienced minor intimate partner violence, and 5.5% of men and 6.5% of women had experienced severe intimate partner violence.[48][49]

In England and Wales, the 1995 "Home Office Research Study 191" found that in the twelve months prior to the survey, 4.2% of both men and woman between the ages of 16 and 59 had been assaulted by an intimate.[50]
The Canadian General Social Survey of 2000 found that from 1994 to 1999, 4% of men and 4% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 22% of men and 28% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 7% of men and 8% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[35]

The 2005 Canadian General Social Survey, looking at the years 1999–2004 found similar data; 4% of men and 3% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 16% of men and 21% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 6% of men and 7% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[36]

The 1975 National Family Violence Survey found that 27.7% of intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by men alone, 22.7% by women alone and 49.5% were bidirectional. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, resulting in almost identical data.[52]

The 1985 National Family Violence Survey found 25.9% of IPV cases perpetrated by men alone, 25.5% by women alone, and 48.6% were bidirectional.[53]

A study conducted in 2007 by Daniel J. Whitaker, Tadesse Haileyesus, Monica Swahn, and Linda S. Saltzman, of 11,370 heterosexual U.S. adults aged 18 to 28 found that 24% of all relationships had some violence. Of those relationships, 49.7% of them had reciprocal violence. In relationships without reciprocal violence, women committed 70% of all violence.
In 1997, Philip W. Cook conducted a study of 55,000 members of the United States Armed Forces, finding bidirectionality in 60-64% of intimate partner violence cases, as reported by both men and women.[55]

The 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health found that 49.7% of intimate partner violence cases were reciprocal and 50.3% were non-reciprocal. When data provided by men only was analyzed, 46.9% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 53.1% as non-reciprocal. When data provided by women only was analyzed, 51.3% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 49.7% as non-reciprocal. The overall data showed 70.7% of non-reciprocal intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by women only (74.9% when reported by men; 67.7% when reported by women) and 29.3% were perpetrated by men only (25.1% when reported by men; 32.3% when reported by women).[56]

The 2006 thirty-two nation International Dating Violence Study "revealed an overwhelming body of evidence that bidirectional violence is the predominant pattern of perpetration; and this ... indicates that the etiology of ipv is mostly parallel for men and women". The survey found for "any physical violence", a rate of 31.2%, of which 68.6% was bidirectional, 9.9% was perpetrated by men only, and 21.4% by women only. For severe assault, a rate of 10.8% was found, of which 54.8% was bidirectional, 15.7% perpetrated by men only, and 29.4% by women only.[57]

In 2000, John Archer conducted a meta-analysis of eighty-two IPV studies. He found that "women were slightly more likely than men to use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently. Men were more likely to inflict an injury, and overall, 62% of those injured by a partner were women."[58] By contrast, the U.S. Department of Justice finds that women make up 84% of spouse abuse victims and 86% of victims of abuse by a boyfriend or girlfriend.[59]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#:~:text=The%20theory%20that%20women%20perpetrate,Straus%20and%20Richard%20J.

I’m not suggesting that, male and female staff should be gaining consent before any personal care. I’m saying as a healthcare employee who works with very professional and respectful men, why should it be a blanket rule that the women do all of the hands on care? If anything it’s batting the problem back to women. As a PP said, I’ve seen more bad care from women than men.

Slightly different, but Ive had a few 24 hour ECG's. The first one was fitted by a male nurse without a chaperone in a closed room. I felt extremely uncomfortable. My sister is a nurse and I kept telling myself they're used to this. But I'd didn't want to feel that way again, so when I had others I politely asked whether the nurse would be f or m. One further time they said I might have to wait a little longer for a female nurse, I said I was happy to wait. I had the rest done at my GP surgery and thankfully they are all female nurses.

@deadpan he should have asked if you wanted a chaperone . My daughter has had a few echocardiogram’s and one of them was with a man but he asked if she was happy with it and wanted a chaperone and I went in with her . ( private hospital) .

tinyspiny I have had other procedures since when a chaperone has been present without me even asking for one. I was a bit naive with the ECG I guess, it didn't occur to me that would be an option.

I'm not trying to be a dick but nurses don't fit 24 hour ECGs.

You should have been given the option of keeping your bra on, although then you would have to sleep in your bra.

That’s lovely for you, but what about those women who cannot have a male HCA for religious reasons? Or victims of SA? Or those who are just plain embarrassed at strange men seeing them in a vulnerable position? Should they just get over themselves and put up with it?

@Soontobe60 they can ask for a female nurse , the fact that some women aren’t comfortable with a male nurse doesn’t mean male nurses shouldn’t exist

Sashh Maybe it depends where you are in the country, I'm in the north west (England). But I've only had them fitted by nurses, not dr's

I had this when I was in my late teens in hospital with severe breathing issues. I was alone on an empty ward. I managed an equally inappropriate, 'you wish' and then that was the end of it.

Looking back, I should have probably questioned it, but nobody in hospital has the energy to fight.

They are fitted by physiological scientists, AKA clinical physiologists AKA medical technical officers AKA cardiac technicians. I had three different titles when I was doing the job

In some places cardiographers fit them but they don't report on them.

www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/healthcare-science/roles-healthcare-science/physiological-sciences/cardiac-sciences#Healthcare%20science%20practitioner

My mum had a male nurse, she had a brain injury and he had a very heavy accent ( I could barely understand what he was saying) , so they couldn’t verbally communicate effectively. He was going to take her for a shower and wash , but fortunately I stepped in and told the female HCAs that she needed a female member of staff todo this, so they kindly stepped in.
my mum absolutely would not have been comfortable with a male providing intimate care.
I was surprised that this scenario played out , and made a mental note at the time.
This was on a ward where there was a devastating case of several elderly females with other brain damage being raped by a male nurse circa 10 years ago.

women commit the majority of child abuse

This is because "child abuse"
a) covers a multitude of sins and
b) women, normally mothers, are the main care givers.

"Child abuse" stats are often conflated with "neglect" stats and the issue that mothers are almost always recorded as being responsible for is "neglect".

This can include circumstances such as a child being ill-fed or poorly clothed, which can be related to poverty or the mother being in an abusive relationship where she is also unable to care properly for herself.

Number of perpetrators in child abuse cases in the United States in 2023, by sex
Women: 215,443
Men: 197,690
Unknown: 4,763

Release date
January 2025
Region
United States
Survey time period
2023

Supplementary notes
A perpetrator is defined as a person who was determined to have caused or knowingly allowed the maltreatment of a child.

Based on State submissions to National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System (NCANDS) of alleged child abuse and neglect. NCANDS collects case level data on children who received child protective services response in the form of an investigative or alternative response. Each state has its own definition of child abuse and neglect based on standards set by federal law. Child abuse is defined as any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation; or an act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk or serious harm.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/418470/number-of-perpetrators-in-child-abuse-cases-in-the-us-by-sex/

Given the thread topic, "child abuse" might have been understood to mean "child sexual abuse". The main perps in this case are, overwhelmingly, men and boys and the victims are predominantly little girls and babies.

Key messages from research on intra-familial child sexual abuse
Most people who sexually abuse children in a family context are male, although abuse by females does occur. Abuse may be by other children in the family as well as by adults.
https://www.csacentre.org.uk/research-resources/key-messages/intra-familial-csa/

One in ten men have carried out sex offences against children
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4902760-4902760-one-in-ten-men-have-carried-out-sex-offences-against-children

Maybe that's who fitted it in the hospital but it was nurses who fitted them in the GP surgery. I know this because that's what they had written on their badges.
My observation was not meant as an insult, and in no way was I attempting to demean anyone's standing - if being compared to nurse is demeaning.

That's unusual, that a GP even has the tech. I wonder if they analyse them or send them off.

It's not demeaning, it just still grates that people either think you are a nurse or refer to you as, "The ECG girl"

Good post @POWNewcastleEastWallsend

Some people just seem to really hate women and want to blame us for everything.

In relation to your info, I have heard of cases where the mother is prosecuted for not leaving an abusive relationship where a child then gets hurt by the man even if she doesn’t directly hurt the child. They seem to forget that women are far more likely to be murdered by the man if she tries to leave. But it’s always our fault right @MoneyTaIks ?

@logiccalls Therefore, a male patient will have no fear of either a male or a female nurse, (nor, if a woman patient is put on his ward, will he be scared to fall asleep) but a female patient will, for sensible and legally accepted reasons request women-only wards and women-only staff.

For someone who made a point of using "logic" in their username, this is a completely bonkers comment.

Why would a male patient not be afraid of being overpowered or assaulted by a male nurse? Are you one of those people who thinks that men aren't afraid of other men? How strange.

And I imagine that if a male patient needs assistance with washing, he's likely to be very unwell, and he would not be able to defend himself against sexual assault. So why on earth do you think sexual assault isn't a problem for male patients?

I must apologise for not makng my reasoning clearer: Men are roughly twice as strong as women. Men are responsible for virtually all sexual assaults. Males have a tendency to sexually assault women and children, not to attempt the same assaults against their fellow men. (Either from fear their proposed victim will turn out to be stronger, or from lack of sexual interest in other men) Therefore, most men will not particularly fear sexual assault from other men. And none will fear it from women. Women will also not fear their fellow women, again for the sensible reason that they know women don't have any statistically significant inclination to attack or sexually interfere with anyone, man, woman or child.

@logiccalls Men are roughly twice as strong as women.

That's irrelevant to what I said. Please read my comment again.

Males have a tendency to sexually assault women and children, not to attempt the same assaults against their fellow men. (Either from fear their proposed victim will turn out to be stronger, or from lack of sexual interest in other men)

Comments like this betray an astonishing level of ignorance, and a lack of knowledge about the real world.

In the majority of violent crime cases, the perpetrator is male and the victim is male. I find it absolutely mind-boggling that you don't think men are violent to each other; violence between men is highly visible and you will see this all the time.

As for "lack of sexual interest in other men," I am going to say something that will shock you; gay men exist. Although the majority of sexual violence happens against women, this is only because most men are heterosexual.
It is somewhat noteworthy that the most prolific rapist of all time in the UK was a gay man who only attacked men (he raped over 100 men).

Therefore, most men will not particularly fear sexual assault from other men.

Actually, it would be somewhat of a concern if I was in hospital and extremely unwell, which is the reason why I would prefer female staff looking after me.