Do male nurses ask to wash female hospital patients?

[PrinceRegentLady]

Asking because of a comment I saw on a thread about the M&S changing room issue. The comment reminded me of an experience of my own.

My question is: is it considered acceptable, in terms of professional behaviour, for a male nurse (just a bog standard male, I’m not thinking about transgender people here, that’s a whole different issue) to approach a frail female hospital patient, alone, out of the blue, & ask her if she wants HIM to help her wash her body in the shower? (I do not mean to ask generally if she wants help washing, which could come from anyone - but to ask if HE specifically can help her wash in the shower.)

Or is this only done, in the case of a female patient, by a female nurse?

And whatever the answer to this is, what should it be?

Again this is false equivalence because your incident, in that country, a) turned out NOT to be a sinister abuse of access by a male, and b) was NOT something you objected to at the time or afterwards.

But upthread, you will see another incident, in a medical setting, which certainly was abuse. (An unchaperoned male GP, in the evening, out of hours, giving a prolonged and painful vaginal 'examination' to a lone and very young woman, on the preposterous pretext it was essential before he could prescribe antibiotics for an entirely unrelated problem, a sore throat.)

My brother did some care work and was only ever sent out to men. I would think male carers are in shorter supply and it should not be necessary to send them to women.

Last time I was at GP, for a gynae issue, before she examined me she said she'd just call the chaperone in. I said oh that's ok, no need. She said - no, it's for me. She also asked if it was ok to touch me and to use speculum etc.

As far as I can remember, if the patient is aware, and able to move their hands and arms, it's much better for the patient if the hca/nurse gives them agency and autonomy. Which during a wash simply means saying "now, you do the bits you can reach". Everybody knows exactly what's meant, you don't even have to have naming of parts. Some posts here seem to presume that a patient is a completely passive recipient of care, rather than an active participant. It happens, but that's not the usual scenario for conscious patients.

And they love it!

For all those breezy “of course it’s alright to coerce ask vulnerable female patients too scared to say no to the man asking to wash them”

Here are 4000 NHS staff reported for rape, sexual assault or harassment. Overwhelmingly male either female victims. How do you think that happens?

As PP pointed out there can be consequences for saying no and patients are often aware of that. It’s not really consent is it.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-65671018?app-referrer=deep-link

Well, in that instance they'll probs be considered the victim (the female carer that is).

Just spent a week in hospital where I was cared for by both male and female care assistants and nurses. At no point did I feel there was any need to request a woman. The men were just as caring and gentle as the women - as they should be, in a professional environment where it’s their job. I was completely immobile for the first few days and needed personal help. It was all fine. It would have seemed awkward and strange to request a woman.

i think any male nurse/ca would get sacked very quickly if there was any suspicion of improper behaviour. It’s a positive thing there are more men in caring professions now.

My brother has worked in emergency care all his life (now 50). He was telling me the other day how if a male member of staff was examining a female patient with any level of intimacy (ie needing to expose her body in some way) they always used to ensure a female was present as well but over the last few years there are nowhere near enough staff to do that. Often he has to treat patients on his own in the back of an ambulance on the street outside the hospital.

I know I’m not referring to washing on the ward but I’d imagine a similar scenario? Not enough staff for there to be an option any more.

Also: for the vast majority of medical staff, the body they are helping is not sexualised to them, they see everything all the time and are used to all kinds of responses from patients and trained to deal with them.

That’s nice that you had a good experience. Many women don’t.

The trouble with sacking men for improper behaviour is that a woman (often women) has already been harmed.

We know from vast amounts of experience that if a profession gives men an unusual level of access to women, some bad men will be attracted to that profession and take full advantage.

Are you aware of the number of male midwives that now have a conviction for sex offences? It’s a tiny population that causes a disproportionate amount of harm.

Women need to be protected from ‘some’ men, not all. Some of the most competent nurses I know are male. Most I know are CYP nurses too, and highly sought after.

You are absolutely right though, that all women sadly need protecting from individuals (usually men) from being in a vulnerable/dangerous situation. Which is an abhorrent thought.

Patients have the right to request a different care giver, and this is followed as much as possible. Males nurses/HCAs would not usually give personal care or assist with personal care unless a second person present to assist. This protects them just as much as protecting the patient. (Again, not always possible for less demanding tasks such as a transfer to the toilet).

Male nurses and HCAs are trained , patients are given an option to say they’d rather have a same sex member of staff but from my experience most patients don’t mind . There is nothing sexual about washing a patient .

I don't know much other than the five weeks I spent in an ortho trauma ward.

It was very rare to see a nurse helping a patient shower. Or even give a bed bath. It certainly didn't happen often. Even when incontinent patients peed the bed it sometimes took hours for them to change them.

The nurses never prompted anyone to try to wash or brush teeth. Or offered to bring a bowl round each morning for seated toilet regime. One nurse told a lady to brush her hair once.

When I was there, I was the only person who used the shower every day. But that's because they're bed bound and as soon as you can walk with an aid to the bathroom, use it, and come back, you're kicked out of the hospital.

My friend who was there a month, when I hugged her goodbye she smelled really bad. The nurses never bathed her or changed her in a timely fashion. And she was totally bed bound.

I do know that if anyone requested a female nurse they swapped over for the task at hand. But bathing seemed very low priority regardless of the sex of the nurse.

This brings back a memory of when I had an abdominal hysterectomy. When I could get up I had a male nurse who was very insistent that he would help me in the shower. I got up myself & locked the door

a male nurse tried to wash my gma but she’s fiesty and went crazy about it 😂😂I love her so much 🥰

This.

Some of the attitudes on here suggest us females should be the only ones in caring roles or men can be, but only when it suits us.

I would have assumed he was working on the ward and had been told to ask if patients needed help to shower (from him as the person available), just the same as going around doing the routine obs and offering drinks, etc. It would be easy enough to say no if you don't like the idea, but a lot of things in hospital are done by male staff on female patients and visa versa. I don't suppose he was lusting after her, just being helpful and doing his job.

There shouldn’t be anything sexual about anaesthetising a woman while she has a Caesarian but one anaesthetist found it to be as he put his penis in her mouth.

Sadly some men can find their thrills in all sorts of ways. Like the man who raped a senior conscious stroke patient so that she haemorrhaged and bled to death in her hospital bed.

So many people seem to have lost the knowledge about how some men can behave.

I should add that many women, some elderly and vulnerable have many reasons for not wanting intimate care from a man. What kind of society do we live in when that can’t be respected. Especially considering that the vast majority if care staff are women.

Not all men are bigger and stronger than all women, and male patients can also be vulnerable due to their weakened health at the time and can also be elderly and infirm. The idea that women patients wouldn't sleep if there was a male nurse on the night staff seems ridiculous to me. If anything having a man on the nursing staff would make a woman feel safer particularly in the case of an intruder or disturbance of some sort.

They just ask if they are happy or wish to wait for a female member of staff, it’s not a big thing, the same as female nurses ask men.

Indeed but you don’t tar all men with the same brush , what is your answer - ban all men from hospitals

This is the attitude that gets all men a bad name.I have been a nurse for many years and some of the best colleagues were men.
They are courteous and respectful to clients whether male or female.
Usually take a female colleague with them when carrying out personal duties and they are great at cutting down the bullying amongst an all female workforce.
You can always ask for female staff if you prefer

Why was help needed to wash? I was assisted by a female nurse (and I didn’t want any help) but it was an odd situation.

’note no other GP has ever insisted on putting his hand inside me before prescribing antibiotics! And can a manual vaginal examination even reveal early stage pregnancy?’ No it isn’t, sorry this happened to you OP.

Obviously we don’t but as the bad guys don’t wear a helpful ‘I am a rapist’ badge we need to treat all men equally and have effective safeguarding and consent that actually means something (rather than coercion dressed as consent).