Struggling with trans friend

[Llamallamadingdong]

I have a friend (male) who has decided that they are actually female.

They’ve felt this way for many years now and confided in me and have not told anyone else. Recently had their first gender clinic appointment and have been told that the clinic will not help until they have at least tried to present as female (so far they have messed about with some clothes and makeup alone at home but never gone out in public)

Anyway they recently approached me and asked if I would help pick an outfit, do makeup and help with hair and then go out with them trying to present as female.

The problem is I just can’t do it. Fundamentally I don’t truly believe that we can change sex and I feel like I’m supporting a weird fantasy. Not sure what I want from this thread, I seem to be the only GC person in my friendship group and I feel like I’m a horrible person for potentially denying someone something they really want.

Didn’t Caitlin Jenner say the hardest thing about being a woman was choosing what to wear? But no @Blessthismess2 its not based on sexist stereotypes at all is it?

No being trans is not sexist and has nothing to do with stereotypes

So you don’t thing what Jenner said was sexist and a negative stereotype of women? Wow!

If the gender identity movement is actually a men’s rights movement, how would that translate for FTM trans people - internalised misogyny?

Being trans has nothing to do with being sexist or stereotypes about women (negative or otherwise).

These are negative stereotypes about trans people, informed by misunderstanding and prejudice.

So you keep saying, when others are saying that’s not their experience- but you don’t elaborate or provide any reasoning or supporting evidence for your point of view. Why? Don’t you have any?

How do you dress OP because I am guessing that’s not how he wants to dress. Like everyone else I’m wearing comfy stuff these days, that won’t be what he wants.
Most of my stuff is online, supermarkets and rarely a shop.

What he is looking for though is the ‘experience’, and I wouldn’t play into that. You have no expertise in dressing a male body or make up on male skin. you might also get the blame when he doesn’t actually ‘pass’ too, which he won’t.

I think 'I'm trans' is the tip of a huge iceberg that has so much churning away below the surface.

Of those I know who identify as trans ...

One fifteen year old autistic butch lesbian

One straight 30-something woman who was the victim of childhood sexual abuse and never had any form of therapeutic help

One 40-something woman with a husband, who always knew something was dreadfully wrong but was never able to articulate what it was

Several clearly (from their behaviour and conversation) AGP middle aged men.

I can only speak of those I know, but it does seem the big difference in mtf and ftm is that women and girls are trying to get away from their experiences and society's expectations directly related to their sex (the female reality), while men are attracted to the sexual element of crossdressing, drag, being in women's space, and 'girl talk' 🤮. The female fantasy. Funny how menopause so seldom seems to feature in the fantasy.

And from what I've read, what lies beneath can include unsupported homophobia from family and school, bullying, autism, child abuse, mental health issues...

So much that, to me, needs robust psychological support, not pandering to a fantasy that cannot become real (changing sex), not mutilating, scarring, sterilising and a lifelong potentially harmful (see Scott Nugent's writing) drug addiction.

Blessthismess2 is basically just saying NO DEBATE over and over again while quoting intelligent posts.

Not really. But wasn’t the whole stonewall campaign “transwomen are women, get over it”. Nothing about transmen was there? How many transmen get interviewed o. Tv or in papers apart from when they’re pregnant or needed to prove a point?

When the SC ruling came out, it was actually really good news for transmen, but everyone was so focussed on males with a trans identity it got ignored.
the fact that allowing males with trans identities into female spaces means transmen are put into male spaces. How many transmen play and win in men’s sports?

. If biological males are in danger in male spaces as they’re claim, wouldn’t transmen as biological females be in even more danger? Would you want a transman being put in a male prison? If not, why not? If males with a trans identity can access female shelters and crisis groups, then where do transmen go? There aren’t many such provisions for men. So it seems males with a trans identity get all the benefits from the gender identity movement and females with trans identities get none. So it is a men’s rights movement.

Can you expain what 'living as a woman' means (when talking about a male born person) without using stereotypes?

I think that’s definitely part of it, yes. It’s a singularly misogynistic movement.

Then you’ll have to back up your argument with something more convincing, won’t you? Or don’t. Up to you entirely, but you’re unlikely to win any hearts and minds.

I believe there are shelters and crisis centres that allow males. I thought the issue with crisis centres was those that are specified as female only, but allow trans identifying males?

There are therefore some that don’t specify they’re female only.

If gender identity is actually a masquerade for male rights, that would mean (as far as I can see);

• MTF trans people believe we’re the weaker class, but want to be female anyway.
• FTM trans people believe the same, but want to escape that by being male.

Only one of those makes sense to me when you look at them together.

That makes sense. I can see how someone could see that as a “way out.”

If you can’t beat them, join them etc.

But males with a trans identity do see us as the weaker class. that’s why they believe women don’t deserve rights. To them we are second class citizens and they become women to show us how much better at women they can be. Shon Faye, Katie Montgomery, Stephanie Hayden, .jonathan Yaviv and many more. Also, look at the whole sissy porn genre. (Or don’t if you value your sanity).

females with a trans identity usually opt out of womanhood as they see the way women are treated in society. As second class citizens.

Personally, I can’t rationalise why someone would want to become part of a class they view as weaker.

Doesn’t make a single bit of logical sense to me.

Yes, I think so.

But they don’t. They are not women. They don’t do any of the things women do. They don’t #be kind. They don’t put themselves second. If they did they wouldn’t demand access to female spaces. The fact people believe a male claiming to be a woman over a woman saying he’s not shows no one actually believes they are women. they are actually mansplaining womanhood to women.
And as per Debbie Hayton, his wife still does all the housework and childcare. Funny how they never want to do any of thst kind of being a woman.

Exactly. Hayton wanted to put tights on because the feeling aroused him ( as described by him in his book)

That’s the thing, I think it’s been long debated that there is no “things women do.”

We certainly don’t all do all the housework and childcare.

They’d be forcing themselves into what they see as a lower class, with absolutely no blueprint available.

I’m sure there are reasons, but I’m personally not convinced that’s one of them.

So if there are no”things women do” how do these men know they are women? They do the bits of being a woman they choose and ignore the rest. How many times on here even have women told to #bekind or tone policed for saying males with a trans identity are not women. Yes males with trans identities are allowed to issue death and rape threats with impunity. The fact is they believe they are better than women at being women. As Shon Faye said to women “enjoy your erasure”.

Because it's sexually arousing.

Malaga airport springs to mind

It means recognising oneself and being recognised by others as being a woman.