Struggling with trans friend

[Llamallamadingdong]

I have a friend (male) who has decided that they are actually female.

They’ve felt this way for many years now and confided in me and have not told anyone else. Recently had their first gender clinic appointment and have been told that the clinic will not help until they have at least tried to present as female (so far they have messed about with some clothes and makeup alone at home but never gone out in public)

Anyway they recently approached me and asked if I would help pick an outfit, do makeup and help with hair and then go out with them trying to present as female.

The problem is I just can’t do it. Fundamentally I don’t truly believe that we can change sex and I feel like I’m supporting a weird fantasy. Not sure what I want from this thread, I seem to be the only GC person in my friendship group and I feel like I’m a horrible person for potentially denying someone something they really want.

I don't think men do look fine without it though! Or to be more accurate, they look better with it, too. I have a male friend who went on a TV show once and they used MAC Studio Fix on him. I met him after and he looked about ten years younger! He didn't look like he was wearing makeup, his skin just looked amazing! I've long thought that it's a pity men can't enhance their looks like this. (When I say "can't," I'm perfectly aware that there's no law against it, but it's definitely socially unacceptable.) Men should be able to smooth out their skin and hide their dark circles if they want, just like we can. It wouldn't have to mean wearing red lipstick! But I bet if there was no social barrier, they'd like the opportunity to look a bit younger, a bit more awake, just like we often do. Male makeup wouldn't have to mean looking female. I wish I could persuade a male friend to let me try some "man makeup" on him. I'd create some definition with the brows and natural-looking mascara, some subtle blush, some fake tan, some foundation, maybe some contouring. I mean, Leonardo DiCaprio must have been wearing a ton of makeup in Titanic, and he didn't look like a woman!

Absolutely!

I just can't help but notice that the vast, vast majority of regular men don't seem to WANT to wear skirts and dresses.

However, what about all the people on here with trans identifying children? Are they sexual deviants too?

I think you’ll find that the force teaming of young girls with mental health issues and often trauma around sexual abuse, autism or homosexuality, young effeminate boys who most likely have homophobic families and men who have watched too much porn and widely advertise their sexual motivations for their self proclaimed ‘identity’ has been dealt with thoroughly in many many threads. I suggest you spend a bit of time reading up.

influence my critical thinking to the point of confidently proclaiming it to be 'a sexual perversion' without any evidence.

the evidence is widely available from the men themselves.

Re trans identifying children, it is definitely sexual in the cases of some young people.

two of his friends identifying as women from the age of 15/16 and telling everyone how sexy it made them feel and posting pictures of their thighs is what peaked my son.

equally some trans identifying young women have a fetish for gay men.

Yes, you make an interesting point. This is often mentioned but gr is worth considering that as the trans activists repeatedly point out, ‘trans’ people have been around for many years. They were definitely around when the thought processes and research around homosexuality were taking place.

So we need to consider the claims that research and understanding on this just needs to catch up with our level of understanding of gay people.

As you pointed out earlier there are several distinct cohorts. One, the older men who suddenly find their ‘true selves’ after being married/having families etc, we know quite well. They are often homophobic or have internalised homophobia (we have lots of evidence from their group documents etc).

The newly emerged group of young girls is more of an unknown. The Tavistock woefully failed to gather much meaningful data on this new social phenomenon (which tracks closely other social contagions like eating disorders, self harm etc) and trans activists have been vocal in their shutting down of many research studies wishing to explore further.

The growing cohort of chronically online young men who freely admit that they were ‘sissyfied’ through watching a mind bending form of porn needs to be looked at but again, most meaningful research is shut down. Ironically they may also be influenced by the Andrew Tate style homophobia which says it’s not gay is a man identifies as a woman.

There is no ‘next level’ understanding we need to attain to accept that some men are internally women. We know enough about their motivations already.

Things coded ‘female’ are seen as lesser. That’s why it’s ok for girls to want to do ‘boy things’ but not for boys to do ‘girl things’.

I used to teach on this subject and I found a video of an American sports coach describing how he asked one of the boys he coached how he’d feel to be described as ‘like a girl’ and this boy saying that he would be “devastated”. Not angry or embarrassed but devastated- to be compared to a girl. Because his view of girls was so horrific.

I also had a video of young teens being asked to run normally, and to run ‘like a girl’. All of them, including the girls, brought their hands up to shoulders, dangled hands, and ran on toes with their feet pointing inwards when they were running ‘like a girl’. As a society, girls and by extension women are seen as vastly inferior to boys and men.

WhatterySquash · Today 01:15

Exxcellent post.

@WhatterySquash what a great post. I have copied it to keep. I think it’s rather extreme to suggest that autistic people used to be locked away, most were not even noticed, never mind diagnosed. I think main differentiator in the “old days” was learning disability.

Yes I think this is a lot to do with stigma, and the association of femininity with weakness, stupidity, or homosexuality. Men don’t want to wear skirts and dresses not because of the nature of the clothes, but because of the stigma, being laughed at, being feminine when it’s important for them to demonstrate that they are masculine. (And I don’t think that in itself is wrong - we can choose to use gender norms to emphasise our sex, or not. How we use gender serves various semiotic purposes)

For men who like cross-dressing / have AGP tendencies, from what I understand this shame and stigma is part of the thrill, the idea of being weak and dominated. All of this is the effects of sexist gender stereotypes.

But then we do have men who do do feminine-coded dressing and make-up and that is socially acceptable in particular circles in various ways - gay culture, music and arts, and youth trends like the glam and androgynous trends of the 80s.

And in a society that says “men can’t wear skirts” we actually do have kilts, clerical and monastic robes that are effectively dresses, and men from several Asian cultures who do wear dress-like garments. And these are fine and not shameful because they are coded masculine. Kilts are actually very masculine socially and if you go to a traditional Scottish wedding with all the men in kilts it just feels totally male gendered and not odd at all.

I bet loads of UK men would be happy to wear a flowy, cotton djellaba type thing when it’s hot, if it was masculine-coded as it is in some places.

The other way round, women wearing trousers was scandalous (to some) at first but essentially they were practical for various activities and an escape from stricter dress codes. Now we have loads of options as women including androgynous or actual menswear, and feminine-coded versions of trousers and shirts etc - but none of them are really about presenting as a hypersexualised, scantily clad stereotype of a man, it’s about wearing what works and what we like rather than fetishising masculinity. That’s what needs to happen for men too - dresses and skirts that they can wear because they work for them, without stigma. I think if and when that happens, it will reduce the appeal of AGP too.

Perfectly masculine, everyday-outfit bloke in dress:
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/man-in-djellaba-playing-with-his-mobile-phone-on-the-news-photo/481741249?adppopup=true

I’ve been out to Sainsbury’s. I’d say 90% of the women were wearing trousers/leggings/jeans/shorts. The women wearing dresses/skirts were either very old or young, or obviously trying to dress modestly.
They were all wearing comfy shoes.

Men wearing tiny skirts and heels aren’t interested in looking like actual women, or living like actual women.

I don’t even know how to confidently shop for dresses for my very average woman’s body, let alone a great hulking man’s.

The reason why I am against most trans nonsense is BECAUSE I’ve listened to too many trans people 🤷‍♀️

@Peachesandcream1000 I did educate myself. That’s how I know gender identity ideology is misogynistic, sexist crap. Do one with your “if you know transpeople”. I do. I did. I was very “be kind”. Then I was told I needed to learn more as nothing other than yotal capitulation would do. So I did. It did not have the effect that was required. The more I learned, the less I could support it. After years of being emotionally and mentally abused by a transperson, and made to feel less than and as an emotional support human to his fantasies, do not tell me I needed to know more. I know plenty Thankyou.

The only correct and accurate thing for you to say on the topic is "I don't know." Because you do not. How you imagine things are is absolutely nothing.

Does this apply to men who claim to be women too? If not why not? They can have no clue at all what being a women is like so why don't they admit that and drop it?

I also know trans people, including a very close relative. The ones I know are traumatised, autistic and/or gay females who have gone down a pipeline of seeking a more and more extreme trans identity, clearly triggered by feeling like they don't fit in and want to escape their bodies and the expectations on women. They are NB, then "transmasc", then TM, they get hormones, then top surgery - but they never end up happy (or really resembling men). They cut off anyone who dares to question if it's the right thing for them or dares to doubt any aspect of gender ideology - that's not the behaviour of someone who's confident in their choice. They also proceed like clockwork to end up in polycules with one trans-ID-ing or NB male and multiple females servicing him. How progressive.

What are the chances multiple female people would follow this exact path and these are just the ones I know? They suddenly realise they're NB, then transmasc, then a man, then poly. And cut off anyone who doesn't support everything they say even when it makes zero sense (I give you "women were only segregated in sports because they kept beating the men" and "50% of trans children die if they don't get affirming care on demand" - no, I won't swallow lies like that just to get brownie points).

It is extremely obvious that this pathway is influenced by an ideology and that people who are pulled into it keep going further to try to find the happiness of discovering their "true self" that keeps wearing off and eluding them. I'm sorry for them, it must be awful and I absolutely don't hate them, but I do think if you really think this is abut people being their "true self" you are ignoring a huge range of other factors and the complex realities of human psychology and group behaviour. And that's just one "flavour" of trans, we haven't even got onto the males.

Probably not. But statistically they are more often than not children with other issues such as depression, anxiety, poor self esteem, autism, eating disorders etc etc and I am willing to bet that the parents of those children never affirm their condition to them, and never assure them it is all fine and dandy and that by being depressed, being anxious, having poor self esteem, autism, eating disorders etc they are just becoming their true selves and are brave and beautiful.

Unfortunately this man is now using you to help him with his fetish. I couldn't get past that.

One of my neighbours is a bloke who wears clothes designed for women. He’s got to be pushing 80 and he dresses exactly like women of at least 80. Another previous neighbour was similar (and of a similar age). Both these men could I suppose pass as female, their clothes were of the long and loose variety, but neither bother to try and alter their voices or mannerisms and so there’s no pretence: they’re both men in dresses and that’s ok.

Another local trans-identifying male person wears VERY short skirts and tight tops, and in fact, this was how I identified him as male from a long distance- his 50-60yo wiry male physique showed up in this outfit to the extent that he was unmistakable. This person uses a female name and likes to be referred to as ‘she’, but is far more masculine than either of the previous two.

I know two other males who dress in feminine clothes (apart from the young people I discussed the whys and wherefores of being trans with) and one likes long dresses and hats, the other wears gym clothes and heavy makeup. Again, the one who chooses the less revealing outfits is far less threatening. There’s an aggression in the short, tight clothing choices that I don’t feel from the slightly older group of cross-dressers.

Please note, I am not familiar with most of these people’s “preferred pronouns” and so I have tried to write for clarity.

It's so true, and so depressing.

@AlertCat I was interested in your descriptions of those different TIMs as I saw one at the supermarket last week who was probably 80-odd; easily the oldest TIM I’ve seen in RL. He was wearing very frumpy, dated clothes that one would associate with 80 year-old women- but not even modern day 80 year-old women, some of whom can be quite stylish or at least wear some modern styles, whereas what he was wearing is what I saw older women wearing when I was growing up the 80s and 90s (shapeless acrylic type stuff and a cardigan- he was only missing one of those little plastic rain hoods). It made me wonder whether he was dressing as perhaps his own mother did when she was elderly. I was just relieved he wasn’t in fishnets and a mini skirt.

But I'm sure that some girls doing something like cheerleading would also hate to be described as like a boy/man too by their coaches.

And if young teens were asked to 'run like a boy' then I'm sure plenty would see it as an opportunity to have a laugh and do something stupid too.

Are you? Ok then.

Yep I am.

Are you suggesting that things coded female have just as much status in wider society as things coded male, and that in fact women/girls are not seen as lesser? Or have I misinterpreted what you said?

Well in that post I was specifically referring to those 2 'tests' that you mentioned, which don't prove anything without testing the opposite on girls, and I do believe that many girls would not like to be described as like boys, and that if the test was 'run normally', now 'run like a girl', now 'run like a boy' that there would be a similar run with girls mocking boys and boys playing up to it too.

Sure, in wider society I think women are often seen as lesser, but I don't think what you posted was evidence that supported that, because as I said I think there would have been similar results in reverse.

Ok, I would disagree with you on that from my own experience and from seeking out resources on this topic, and I note that you are only talking about your own opinion , not anything you have seen that backs this up.

Furthermore, “like a girl” is a pretty common insult in society. “Like a man” is only ever used negatively if it’s to put down a woman’s looks.