Still confused about patriarchy

[PixelZing]

What's the feminist take on the fact that, even if we live in such patriarchy, the attention given to issues affecting men/boys is insignificant compared to the same attention given to issues of women/girls?

The list of such issues seems pretty long to me (paternity leave, family court bias, domestic abuse shelters, unequal sentencing, workplace fatalities, due process for false accusations, under-representation in HEAL, men's health funding, suicide rates, homelessness, ...) so I'd say there is plenty to advocate about.

(and BTW I don't even understand why we clump men and boys in the same category, wouldn't be more humane to put boys in the same category of women/girls, since they are affected by similar problems that affect girls?)

Surely the best thing to do is advocate for men in those issues you find important. Women started refuges for example, because there wasn't anywhere for women to flee.

I can’t speak for the feminist take as I am one person and while a feminist I don’t presume to speak for everyone. However, you’re absolutely right; the patriarchy harms everyone and I am particularly concerned about toxic masculinity, the lost boys generation, the alienation of and disenfranchisement of young men FOR SURE.

However, the reason all of the issues you listed get more attention (by whom actually though? Anyone who can make change?) is because of the fundamental power imbalance between men and boys and women and girls. Women and girls are more vulnerable and at risk, and helping them (especially girls) disproportionately positively impacts all of society at a macro level - solve the issues facing girls and you make all of society happier and healthier.

> Surely the best thing to do is advocate for men in those issues you find important

Can try but won't get any funding and no politician would touch the idea of a male DV shelters with a barge pole.

The original question was more about how this is compatible with a "patriarchy". To follow the example, in a patriarchy I would have expected lots of attention to men's shelters and no attention to women's shelters.

We are all in a patriarchy. Do you think we’re not?

Maybe I misunderstood your question and apologies if so. The fact we are in a patriarchy (a system where men hold disproportionately more power than women and therefore dominate across society) is precisely why there tends to be more activism to solve the resulting subordination of women and the impacts they face.

Why would there be lots of attention to men's shelters when it's predominantly women who are forced to flee. On average two women a week die at the hands of a male partner or ex partner. Many women commit suicide or are disabled because of domestic abuse.

The patriarchy didn't provide anywhere for these women to go, so women formed refuges. They campaigned tirelessly for funding and raised money themselves because the patriarchy didn't.

As such, campaign for issues you believe are important, raise money, create awareness and spaces.

the patriarchy is about power and the powerful (men and especially rich men) holding onto power.

low-status men (e.g. men who might need shelters) also don't get much support

in terms of men's health, there may not be so much focused only on men, but when you take conditions that affect both men and women (e.g. heart attacks), then there is more research and expertise on fixing this for men. many common medicines have been tested only or primarily on men and don't work as well for women. Read the book 'invisible women' by Caroline Criado-Perez to see the impacts.

In terms of paternity leave, extended parental leave for working men would also benefit women but would not help the leaders of businesses (i.e. rich men) hence it is hard to make it happen. again a symptom of patriarchy.

Sounds like men need to start upping the campaigning for their rights then.

It suits men not to take longer leave and let the women become default parents, family court bias is a myth, far more women are victims of domestic violence than men but I would support them setting up their own shelters as needed, is sentencing unequal? Far more men commit violent crimes, many repeatedly. There’s not even proper due process for rape and sexual assault, never mind false accusations, men’s health does get funding, men’s suicide does get a lot of campaigning (probably more than women’s health).

The patriarchy is behind alot if these problems, and women dismantling the patriarchy will by side effect help fix these issues. But some responsibility lies with men. Organisations can give more occupational paternity pay if they want, most CEOs are male, so why aren’t they offering more occupational pay etc? Men are best placed to fix these issues but unfortunately not enough want to.

Patriarchy hurts men too. It's the idea that men are strong, alpha, always in control and dominant. So of course they don't need domestic abuse shelters or suicide counselling. Boys don't cry blah blah blah.

If patriarchy is the fact that some few men are in power, which explains why the men at the bottom don't benefit from it, then it makes sense.

I see however that patriarchy is often framed as a system that benefits all men, which leaves me puzzled.

Yes men in power shut down weaker (or lower class) men.

However, I am now skeptical if women in power would do any different?

Women’s issues might be addressed more, but that’s because women ourselves work tirelessly to support other women with little support from men

If men want the same they need to get together and organise that themselves, unless you are suggesting women need to sort men’s shit out too?

If men took the same amount of energy they use to abuse women and focused that on their own issues, the world would be a far better place for all.

Maybe women shouldn't sort men's shit out (albeit men are often expected to be "allies"), but avoiding calling men who raise these points incel/misogynistic would be helpful to start with (not saying you would do it, but I saw it happen).

These points are usually brought up by men's rights activists as some kind of gotcha. Underlying them is toxic masculinity which isn't on women to sort out.

Patriarchy is a system that upholds traditional gender roles, whilst elevating traditionally "masculine" traits above "feminine" ones. It DOESNT mean that every man is a beneficiary. If you are a man who doesnt conform to the very narrow expectations of masculinity then the patriarchy doesnt work for you, it works against you!

The patriarchy says that men are strong and women are weak.
Therefore women NEED help and shelters.

And, for whatever reason (because we ARE weak or - more likely - because of the patriarchy), we NEED those shelters.

I don’t think you’re a confused feminist. I think you’re a lost misogynist. ‘False accusations’? Hmmmmm.

A great example of the patriarchy is this. There’s a men’s counselling and trauma centre near me. Mostly staffed by women. Management are men though. Local homeless provision. Mostly staffed by women, management men. So the people doing the support work are female. The people earning the money are male. But if any of those women advocate for women’s services, “WHY AREN’T THERE MORE MALE SERVICES?”.

There is a research field of masculinity studies, that is starting to be taught in colleges. It addresses a number of the issues mentioned on this thread, from a scientific, sociological perspective. Ironically, the masculinity studies field was started out of women's studies. There is a lot of consideration for how patriarchy has a negative impact on men and women, along the multiple dimensions of oppression: race, gender, socioeconomic status, sexual orientation, gender identity, nationality/immigration, disability and religion.

On a side note, I took a masculinity studies class in college. Afterwards, if I mentioned ways that men were not treated well by society and needed support, the guys would get excited and enthusiastic about the issue and about getting that support. However, it never seemed to go the other way; those same guys were not going out of their way to support women's concerns in how they were being mistreated. It was frustrating.

At the moment it’s just a lot of ridiculous divide and conquer politics. The situation for men AND women keeps getting worse and we are being encouraged to blame each other rather than work together. The media and politicians fan the conflict and we all lose as nothing constructive ever takes place except finger pointing

Unequal sentencing is an interesting one to mention. What do you mean? Because it is well documented that men get more lenient sentences for killing their partners for example. The 'she nagged and I snapped' defence works for men but would never do for a woman and there are plenty of cases to prove it.

On another side note I find interesting, I've heard lifelong feminist writers talk recently about how they are changing their minds about how much to believe men when they blame their impulses (i.e. most probably the effect of male-levels of testosterone) because of the evidence of women who take testosterone because they believe they are male and how incredibly powerful a drug it is. Not saying this to excuse anyone though!

That's not an example of patriarchy, but rather how different genders select different career paths based on preferences and incentives, that tend to be different for the 2 genders.

If you remove patriarchy and put women in power, you'll still have mostly female staff for that type of counselling job.

It's a perfect example of patriarchy. Men put in leadership positions over women.

There's a woman who started an organisation to mentor boys because they didn't have men in their lives. Isn't that ironic.

That's not an example of patriarchy, but rather how different genders select different career paths based on preferences and incentives

As I said, lost misogynist.

(Cambridge dictionary)
Misogyny: feelings of hating women, or the belief that men are much better than women.

I see you.