Did Harris lose because she was a woman?

[username7891]

Apparently even after calling Puerto Rico a floating island of trash, many immigrants still voted for Trump. It's been argued that some sectors of society simply won't vote for a woman.

Even on here, I saw a post asking if a woman would be respected by world leaders.

Do you think that would be effective, the US border is very big. Are they going to constantly patrol the border? You're talking about illegal immigrants not asylum seekers.

Do you think that would be effective, the US border is very big. Are they going to constantly patrol the border? You're talking about illegal immigrants not asylum seekers

It is well known that migrants use asylum as a way to game the system.

The geography is very unfavorable so crossing points are predictable and anyway, if you cannot access work or benefits, you’ll often just go home.

Just read about how Bill Clinton was able to get 12 million illegals to leave America during his eight years in office. (That was back when Democrats cared more about illegal immigration than the Republicans, because they recognized the negative impact on poor Americans)

So don’t let anyone tell you it’s not possible.

As an American you are 100% right. It is a sad place when people will vote for that creature to avoid voting for a woman.

If controlling immigration was that simple, successive governments would have done it.

First, immigrants will get work on farms for example and other places that take on illegal immigrants. They tend to disappear into the black economy.

Second, the US isn't just dealing with people coming from Mexico, it's dealing with people from all over the world and numbers have skyrocketed.

Third even Trump during his first tenure failed at hiring enough border patrol agents. There simply aren't enough and vacancies are very difficult to fill.

Fourth, underfunding has led to a huge backlog in the immigration courts in order to process claims.

I'm assuming that the illegal immigrants are people who have overstayed their visa, failed asylum seekers or have snuck in.

If controlling immigration was that simple, successive governments would have done it

Biden dropped the ball and caused a huge backlash. Stay in Mexico worked. But now we are going to do even better by going after NGOs who help them cross the borders (and, it must be said, coach them on what to say during their asylum interview).

First, immigrants will get work on farms for example and other places that take on illegal immigrants. They tend to disappear into the black economy

We have done workplace raids for quite some time. It’s really very effective, we know the industries they tend to work in, so we target those. And fine the employers who do this.

Second, the US isn't just dealing with people coming from Mexico, it's dealing with people from all over the world and numbers have skyrocketed

They do tend to cross the southern border however, so securing that border is essential in any case

Fourth, underfunding has led to a huge backlog in the immigration courts in order to process claims

I think Biden (belatedly) shut down the ability to claim asylum after illegally crossing the border so they now have to make their claims at a port of entry. So crucially they aren’t in the country at the time they make their claim.

Those women did die, which is tragic and awful.
What about the children that die in school from school shootings.
Who remembers their names? They died because, in part, kids have access to guns. Because of the lack of proper gun control.
What about the women who die because they don't have access to healthcare, who died because the doctor refused to give them an abortion even though the pregnancy is not viable. What are their names.
Yes illegal immigration is not legal. Yes some illegal immigrants do bad things. But that's not why people in America die for the most part. Mostly they succeed in doing it themselves

Whataboutery.

Some of those things I am concerned about too. And I vote accordingly. But caring about abortion access doesn’t mean I stop caring about illegal immigration? Why would it?

But illegal immigration is incredibly easy to solve. Just don’t tolerate it.

Don’t let them claim asylum if they’ve illegally crossed the border. Work with Mexico to maintain their southern border (Mexico doesn’t want them either). Conduct raids and severely punish those who hire illegal immigrants. Defund sanctuary cities. And bust up NGOs who aid in helping migrants cross the border.

Honestly it is the easiest problem to solve as we owe nothing to them.

@PeppedUp

There was a female voter quoted in The Guardian who said she didn’t vote for Harris because she was too “sweet” and wouldn’t be able to stand up to foreign leaders. I’m a bit shocked at that view based on how subservient Trump appears around Putin.

I'm anti-Trump, but I can understand this view. Harris seems unable to explain what she stands for and why, in friendly media interviews. She also doesn't seem to know much about foreign affairs, and many of her wider circle (California Dems) talk of the US as if it's a fundamentally illegitimate project.

Trump's an irrational idiot, but (or 'so', maybe) he's shown himself able to take very tough lines internationally and follow through on them. He is hard to predict and may overreact. That makes formidable in international affairs. He also delivered decent progress with the Abraham Accords.

If you are a Putin, you probably expect an easier ride with Trump but you will know your tail risks are much much higher.

It's about focusing attention on things that make a difference.
Claiming asylum is different to illegal immigration by the way.
If it was easy Trump would have solved it 4 years ago. He didn't

Same with Tories here. There's more legal immigration than illegal

Claiming asylum is different to illegal immigration by the way

If you want to waste time hearing a bunch of fake asylum cases, go right ahead. I don’t care about our ‘international obligations’ let’s not fuck ourselves because of a document signed before any of us were even born.

If it was easy Trump would have solved it 4 years ago

He made a lot of progress, but was not maximalist. I have expectations that with the strong election showings, he will be further emboldened.

But you also have to recognize that Biden rescinded a lot of Trump’s border control. So he ended Trump’s ‘Remain in Mexico’ policy, which was a huge misstep and caused surges across the border.

Add to that the return of catch and release instead of detention, and you have the problems we’ve been having the past four years. People have had enough and voted accordingly.

Exactly this. With a stroke of his pen, Biden simply canceled the most effective measures Trump had put in place to minimize illegal entry into the country. His "catch and release" policy effectively incentivized them to cross illegally.

*@izimbra , why do you think that Trump's black and Hispanic support increased between 2020 and 2024?

No thoughts on this, @izimbra?

Because black people and hispanic people, like white people, can also fall prey to demagoguery, hate speech and misinformation.

But why more susceptible in 2024 than in 2020?

Alternatively, Trump's popularity has grown across demographic groups because of the deliberate chaos at the border and economic conditions.

Because more misinformation, and because of inflation.

Incumbent governments around the world have done badly in this years elections.

Good grief - we had a very right wing government in the UK that made a good display of its antipathy to any and all support for transgender rights, and they bombed at the UK election.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-harris-election-incumbents-inflation-living-costs-immigration-economy-politics-2024-11

Fascists and other political extremists tend to do well following a period of social and economic instability or stress like the one created by COVID.

@MissConductUS

So re: disinformation and voting - lots and lots of rhetoric around the issue of immigration, crime and safety. So Republican voters far more likely to believe that serious crime was increasing, rather than the reality which is that there's been a steady fall in the number of serious crime for YEARS, and that immigrants are putting the lives of US citizens at risk when in fact the reality is that "native-born Americans actually committed crimes at levels three times higher than immigrants. According to the National Institute for Justice, native-born Americans committed around 1,100 crimes per 100,000 people, compared to 800 by legal immigrants and 400 for undocumented immigrants."

"Trump’s false claims in this area made Harris look ineffective on crime and immigration."

Good grief - we had a very right wing government in the UK that made a good display of its antipathy to any and all support for transgender rights, and they bombed at the UK election.

Are you seriously saying the Conservatives lost the election because of their anti trans agenda?

The Conservatives had been in power since 2010. It was a cyclical change. Blair ousted a long running Conservative admininstration and Cameron ousted a long running Labour administration.

Even if that were the reason, which it isn't, the SNP was kicked into oblivion so "trans rights" clearly wasn't a vote winner.

Frankly we’ve gone round and round, but my viewpoint is that any crime committed by an illegal immigrant is a crime that, by definition, never needed to happen. They’d be alive if our government took border control seriously.

And that’s how I vote. So your sophistry over who commits more crime is really just irrelevant. They shouldn’t be here in the first place.

It's a false comparison. Crime rates for natives are the baseline, and bringing them down takes a lot of work and good policy. Crime by illegal immigrants is completely and easily preventable by not allowing them in, at least without checking their criminal histories in their countries of origin.

Inflation is certainly one reason why incumbent governments have been turned out. According to the polls here, it's about the same level of importance as the chaos and cost of unchecked illegal immigration.

And fear of crime is just one reason why people are fed up with it. In NYC alone, caring for illegal immigrants costs hundreds of millions of dollars a year, forcing cuts to education and police spending.

https://www.nyc.gov/content/getstuffdone/pages/asylum-seeker-update

*thought I would post this just so you could see how big Trumps win was !!

@RingoJuice

Trump is talking about deporting around 11 million undocumented immigrants - that number has been approximately the same since 2005. The majority are long term residents and have been in the US for at least a decade.

As I said above, there is a huge backlog in cases because of chronic underfunding and each immigrant has the right to due process. There will also be the problem of legal cases from human rights and immigration lawyers.

Most illegal immigrants aren't caught by Ice but local law enforcement, some of which are saying they won't help with a mass deportation plan. As you know a number of cities have passed laws restricting local police co operation with Ice.

Although Trump has said he'll take action against sanctuary cities, local, state and federal law will complicate matters. Additionally there are only 20,000 Ice agents which won't be enough to track down millions of people.

After they've been tracked down, people have to be housed and then wait to see a judge and the system is already years behind. Remember this is all paid for by the taxpayer and these people are no longer working. Arrangements need to be made with the country they're being reported to plus transport.

Trump is talking about building massive internment camps and letting law enforcement act with impunity. None of this will be effective without proper border enforcement and recruitment is a long and difficult process.

There's also the financial cost in cutting down on illegal immigrants in the black economy as in some sectors such as farming, they're pretty embedded and keep wages low.

All these changes are going to cost millions upon millions plus Trump's other plans which includes the southern US border wall, a naval blockade to prevent fentanyl entering the country, and moving thousands of troops to the border

These are all great questions!

As I said above, there is a huge backlog in cases because of chronic underfunding and each immigrant has the right to due process. There will also be the problem of legal cases from human rights and immigration lawyers

We don’t have to hear any cases from illegal border crossers. They can go to the relevant points of entry and if they’ve not, we don’t have to hear them out.

Besides, we ALL know that most will have no basis to claim asylum and their intent is simply to work in America. They are just using asylum to accomplish this.

Most illegal immigrants aren't caught by Ice but local law enforcement, some of which are saying they won't help with a mass deportation plan

That’s going to have a political cost. Do mayors and police chiefs really want to be on record supporting this stuff the next time an illegal immigrant inevitably rapes and murders someone in their city? They will not.

As you know a number of cities have passed laws restricting local police co operation with Ice

They have done, but hopefully the political climate has changed. And as you said, Trump will take action. How did we get the (absurd) drinking age in America? Because the federal government forced the states into this via federal funding.

Additionally there are only 20,000 Ice agents which won't be enough to track down millions of people

Eisenhower deported one million people with iirc less than 1000 agents.

After they've been tracked down, people have to be housed and then wait to see a judge and the system is already years behind

Why would we need a judge for someone known to be an illegal immigrant? Asylum will be a foregone conclusion, since they didn’t go through official channels it should be assumed they have no case.

In fact I just looked up stats on this and about 40% do not go before a court but are just summarily expelled. So we have a process for this already.

Remember this is all paid for by the taxpayer and these people are no longer working. Arrangements need to be made with the country they're being reported to plus transport

I think I speak for many Americans when I say that we are much more excited to pay for this than, say, billions for Ukraine.

There's also the financial cost in cutting down on illegal immigrants in the black economy as in some sectors such as farming, they're pretty embedded and keep wages low

We have agricultural visas. They are seasonal, limited in scope and have no pathway towards citizenship. We can and should expand these programs in tandem.

….. from how you ask these questions, it’s a wonder anyone gets deported at all from the UK. I recall a case where a literal Somali rapist could not be deported because the people on the commercial flight wanted to protect him from deportation!!! Awful.

@RingoJuice

It's late here so I'll respond tomorrow but you're wrong re illegal immigrants and due process. They are protected under the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment which applies to all people in the United States, regardless of immigration status.

I've already made it clear that I'm not talking about people crossing the border but the people already established in the States.

The fact that you are excited about paying
millions of dollars for this when people cannot afford medical treatment is astonishing. It's been estimated by the American Immigration Council that his plans could cost $315bn, including the broader economic costs through the impact on the US labour market.