Could this be why 'men hate us'?

[Floatyoatcake]

When I was young I was in denial about the fact that men hate women (not all men ofc) but now in my 50s I've come to the firm conclusion that a lot of men hate women.

I also know that most men I've been in relationships with over the last 40 years have started off proclaiming that they have a high sex drive and that sex is important to them etc. However ime men's sex drive is often about novelty, power and control, and not always about intimate sex explored in a relationship. Almost all relationships I've been in, after a while the man has stopped being so bothered about sex, although still keen on the relationship. In the vast majority of relationships I've had, after a year or two, I've been the more sexually driven, while they've often been content to be a bit more of a passenger. I think this fear, of women actually having higher sex drives than men is the reason they hate us. It's fundamental to their beings, that they see themselves as the ones with high sex drives and loathe the thought it might not be true.

Men hold themselves up to be these highly sexually driven creatures and yet the lived experience of myself and friends is otherwise. I guess we don't always know how strong women's sex drives are due to being contstrained by the fear of male violence, but I wonder if men are scared of being exposed as only moderately sexually driven, which is what sits behind their hatred of women.

What do you think - is it a possibility?

Right, so should those women immediately stop what they are doing and refuse to help unless and until male violence against women is stopped, or until the plight of the lesser horned beetle in the Central African Republic is addressed? Or is it only when women are talking about women's issues that not including every other problem in the world is deemed uncooperative?

" Like, why should innocent men stand up and fight for women's rights when they already suffer a lot more violence at the hands of the same perpetrators and generally don't receive much sympathy, often being lumped in with said perpetrators"

Women are more likely to volunteer for suicide prevention charities and support helplines like the Samaritan. Women are also more likely to become psychologists. Women are more likely to set up grassroots antiviolence movements like mother's against knife crime, mothers against guns etc. Women are more likely to be involved in campaigning against CSA which affects men. Women are more likely to work as teachers and nurses.

Your suggestionis that in addition to all of this women should make sure their feminism includes men's problems. I would suggest men don't want that. It was tried - including focusing on how "toxic masculinity" hurts men, or looking at how feminist theory can help boys. Men really really hate that stuff. It feels patronising to have other people discuss why things are going wrong in your group. If change needs to happen, it needs to come from men not because women can't be bothered but because they can't do it. I also think men would benefit from more male mental health professionals, teachers etc and male support if mental health. But I can't force them at gun point.

But when we talk about the gender pay gap, it's dismissed as women's choice because they choose to enter caring professions over making money. But also, (according to you) women deserve no sympathy /support from men because they don't care or help men. I don't think your suggested changes from feminists is even what they want.

@SidhuVicious

I already explained that I know the statistics you're talking about. They don't prove much. The data is based on self reported incidents of violence. The questions didn't include serious forms of domestic abuse such as strangulation, using a weapon, stalking or sexual assault.

Also remember that it's 70% of non reciprocal violence. It includes single incidents of violence, such as a slap on the arm. It does not say whether the incident was part of a pattern of behaviour instigated in order to maintain power and control.

We've already agreed that women are no match for men physically and men are generally not physically afraid of women.

Regarding criminal statistics, my point was, if women are more aggressive than men it would be represented in prison. I think the stats for homicide is 98% male, rape is 99% male and other statistics for violence are similar. Women are rarely incarcerated for violence. I think it's 82% men in court for domestic abuse.

As to whether or not men report it, many probably don't. Many women don't either. Perpetrators often claim to be victims and police note the claim, irrespective of the facts. There's also reactive violence, which is common in domestic abuse, where the victim rises to the abuse and of course, violence in cases of self defence.

We all know the stats, two women on average a week are murdered by a partner or former partner. Women are also more likely to suffer life changing injuries. Family annihilators are predominantly men.

So although, some men do suffer from domestic abuse, it rarely has the same impact. Men are responsible for petitioning for domestic abuse services.

Not at all. I'm saying that you can't really expect a demographic whose problems you don't care about to care about your own problems.

This is where things get entrenched. Women have male family and friends, so to suggest they don't care about men isn't true.

The problem arises when women discuss issues that affect them such as domestic abuse, sexual assault, street harassment, discrimination and other consequences of misogyny.

Inevitably a chorus of 'What about the men?!' arises. It's an infringement into a female discussion. Women are talking about things that concern them, yet are expected to centre men.

As discussed earlier, things like suicide rates in men and male on male violence, are important discussions for men to have. I don't understand why they want women to discuss them when they are busy having a conversation about their own experiences.

Men need to listen to women because it's their behaviour that needs to change. Men are raping, killing and harassing women. Men are a threat to women and women are not a threat to men. We also live in a patriarchal society where women are systematically discriminated against. That needs to change.

Excellent points.

So I'll try again.

Ok, first off, I'm always up for a discussion and I'm not at all the type that gets offended when somebody disagrees with me or challenges something I've said, but you can fuck right off with the snotty tone.

I'll try and answer your questions as sincerely as I can but I'm not sure we'll have a very productive discussion from the little I've seen of your posts as you seem to have a somewhat embittered attitude towards men with posts like the below.

'It's not that complicated IMO. Men hate women because other men hate women. They learn it from the time they are little boys, as men and other boys all around them are expressing contempt for women and girls, more in deed than even in word, and the hateful shit they say is bad enough. They learn to see it as part and parcel of manhood. They take it on board and don't even think about it. Some men (the "civilized" ones) convince themselves they don't hate us. Others know they do and are proud of it.'

Not meaning to be inflammatory but this is just a list of pretty baseless claims which I'd wager the vast majority of women would find a bit bonkers tbh - a fair few already have on this thread. It's like when MRAs say stuff like "women don't want equality, they want special privileges". It's easy to make unfounded statements.

Which women? Which men? Are you saying they're all the same like some massive hive mind?

Personally, I'm not one for making broad generalisations about particular demographics. It's usually what underpins things like xenophobia/homophobia/sexism/classism/etc.

Where are the men you say are willing to work with women to make the world safer for women?

Well, you seem to focus exclusively on the bad men but for every man murdering/raping women there are likely ten men (probably more) saving lives and doing good. If you crash your car and need cut out/get pulled out to sea while swimming/get lost on a mountain/trapped in a burning building etc, who do you think is most likely to rescue you? A man or a woman? 🤔 And do you think they'll say "oh, it's a woman....let her drown, lads....we hate women after all". Looool.

One of my main frustrations with a particular type of feminist (a loud but very vocal minority) is that despite screaming blue murder about the actions of men, nobody is quicker than them to completely absolve themselves of any responsibility to help.

I don't really identify as a feminist but I've helped put hundreds of dangerous men away in my previous job which I did for over a decade. I'm not going to go into detail as it could potentially be quite outing when combined with a few other basic facts about myself which I could easily disclose in future threads without thinking, but it was an investigatory/evidence based role which wasn't part of the police but frequently was involved with.

It's odd to me that women who seem fixated with male criminality aren't rushing to land jobs where they get the opportunity to fight back. It's actually the opposite in most cases - they make excuses why they can't possibly make a difference. I wasn't in any personal danger and my job didn't rely on physical strength at all. But my/my teams evidence was often the critical factor securing the conviction of a murderer/paedophile/violent criminal.

We've already agreed that women are no match for men physically and men are generally not physically afraid of women.

With respect we haven't agreed any such thing. I think this is just one of those assumptions some women make.

I've known a couple of men who've been fairly seriously abused (many incidents over several years, some involving hospitalisation for minor injuries) and they were absolutely terrified of their female partners. One used to knee her partner hard in the groin, scratch his face, and had done more serious things like hit him over the head with a clothes iron. He thankfully got away in the end and she was convicted of assault, although it didn't really affect her as she doesn't work and still receives maintenance from him alongside child support I think as well.

My mother has bullied my father terribly as long as I can remember and neither me nor my sister can challenge it as she takes it out on him. And sadly he just won't leave. There's no physical violence but he's a shell of the man I remember him to be as a child. She'll regularly do things like lock him out the house so he has to sleep in the car at 75 years of age age with his bad back. I honestly don't think I'd care if he just floored her one day (which he won't ever do) but of course that would be terrible for him too.

Sidhu, I see what you mean about needing to help. To me in some ways it's similar to saying that ethnic minorities should fight racism actively rather than complain. The counter argument to that is that male violence, whether directed at men or women, is caused by men, plus men have more influence over men than women do, & don't have to deal w sexism, do they should sort it out. Similarly, generally speaking white people have more influence over racist white people than ethnic minorities do, & ethnic minority racism is
A lot of feminists who protest about male violence against women do play an active role I combating it. Julie Bindel & Harriet Wistrich, for instance.
Personally, I favour a hybrid approach. Women shouldn't have to carry the burden of tackling their own oppression on their own, but they do have a crucial role to play as firefighters. But it's men ultimately who need to put out the fire.

Sidhu, that's awful about your father. Is there no way you can stop her? Surely locking a 75yo man out is illegal?
Some women certainly can be v sadistic. Generally I hold men aren't physically afraid of women, but there is a flipside ofc bc women can threaten to accuse abuse if men fight back, esp as men are more likely to leave a mark. I think this is how female on male abuse or rape often takes place.

I myself have had experience of physically & emotionally abusive family members (mainly male, though their wives coluded in their behaviour). This has made me want to become a criminal lawyer, to offer free help to people I these situations. I think a lot of women are moved to act by these wrongs. I

Very perceptive fear/anger and hate are 2 sides of the same coin IME even with DH sometimes he is shouty or annoyed and I have to say you seem angry but I don't think you really are, what is going on ?

@SidhuVicious

You said:

but we have to play the hand we've been dealt and we're no more able to overcome men by force than the average woman is able to kill a bear in unarmed combat

I agreed with you. In general men are not physically afraid of women. As pointed out in crime statistics, women are rarely prosecuted for serious violence.

I didn't deny that men are abused by women and am sorry to hear of the experiences of the men you know, including your dad.

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't have to solve the problems inflicted on us by others. Maybe that's where the view that "it's our not our responsibility" comes from".

But I think sometimes it's a bit like dealing with a bully. Asking them to stop doesn't work. I remember being bullied at school by this one girl and her friends (she was the driving force and they just followed really). The school were absolutely useless and I felt even more isolated being seen as a 'snitch'.

One day I'd just had enough and decided I was going to confront her no matter what happened to me. I called her a 'fat minger' in front of everybody (she was pretty overweight) and she stormed over and started shoving me. I just lost it and punched her as hard as I could on the nose causing a massive nosebleed. I got in a bit of trouble but she never said a peep to me again after that.

Arguably, it wasn't the 'right' thing to do and I shouldn't have had to do anything but I don't think the bullying would've ever stopped if I hadn't. Obviously, we can't take this approach in the literal sense as adults, especially against men who are much stronger than us, but I've realised over the years that complaining about how things 'should' be doesn't really get anywhere fast. Being proactive is usually the best solution even if things like reducing male violence will take a long time.

It's a tough situation tbh. For example, I've known a few women over the years who've been social workers and they've often expressed frustration that they just don't have the necessary resources to make the difference they maybe could, and they find this very demoralising at times. And mental health services are just completely overwhelmed.

No doubt they've also made a massive difference to the lives of specific individuals but in the bigger picture it's just a drop in the ocean. I feel like there's a conflict between the choice of making a small but real difference and the alternative of just living your life and accepting that bad stuff is always going to happen, which is probably the most likely path to personal happiness as you'll go mad if you try and fix the wrongs of the world.

Looking at the things like serious DV, we're never going to completely eliminate it until we can solve the deeper issues like poverty, substance abuse, etc, and where do you even start? I used to live near a couple when I was a student who were always fighting. The woman would come back with a big bag of clinking bottles every Friday/Saturday and the shouting would usually start a couple of hours later. Usually I'd hear her voice first but then the man would start roaring and I'd hear things being thrown around.

Sometimes I'd see her with a black eye/bruises and I felt sorry for her, but I also resented them both for the constant disturbances and because they were both pretty vile individuals truth be told. After a few months I'll admit I stopped bothering calling the police as it didn't really change anything - I just moved to a different flat as soon as I could. I don't think the problem is as black and white as many like to make out.

I don't think that most men fear us either tbh. At the risk of sounding rude that just sounds to me like the feminist pseudo intellectualism you hear in academia. I do think though that some men feel trapped/helpless and respond by lashing out. Male pride is a very strong thing and I feel like it's possibly a driver in some of the horrific things we see like family annihilation or when men murder their ex and her new partner etc.

Certainly a lot of male violence seems to be focused around notions of having their pride/status/identity insulted. Not just in DV etc but also in things like religious conflict.

@SidhuVicious

You don't sound very clued up about domestic violence. It's not about substance abuse or poverty, it happens in every demographic.

It happens because of a need to maintain power and control, usually over women. The world is male dominated, there isn't a country in the world which is equal.

Some countries are worse than others, though even countries with greater gender parity, have high rates of domestic abuse.

It's because men are socialised to see women as less than, women are viewed through a dehumanising lense. I agree that men don't fear women; women fear men though.

These kinds of views are emulated in things like religious conflict where those outside the group are dehumanised. Religion has been a fundamental factor in the way women have been treated for thousands of years.

Your example of being irritated by the woman with the black eyes is common. It's habitual to blame women for their own victimisation, it's part and parcel of misogyny.

You also criticise women working in jobs in an attempt to make a difference, yet are doing nothing yourself to contribute. You criticise feminists yet your only solution to male oppression is to pander to men.

username, did Sidhu say that? She says she works in a job to help catch criminals, & encouraged women to do the same. I think she was overly negative about the amount of women who try to help, and also disregarded that feminsts who protest male violence work against it as well. But she did say more than that.

You don't sound very clued up about domestic violence. It's not about substance abuse or poverty, it happens in every demographic.

Pilots find high levels of drug use in domestic abuse offenders

https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/police-pilots-find-high-levels-of-drug-use-in-domestic-abuse-offenders

• In 2016, alcohol caused approximately 90,000 domestic violence deaths worldwide.
• Alcohol or drug use is involved in 40-60% of domestic abuse situations.
• Each year, about 300,000 victims of violent assaults report that their attackers were under the influence of alcohol.

https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/addiction-and-violence

Whoa. Temper, temper. Are you really tone policing right now and telling other posters to fuck off? Is that how you go about debating issues? If so, then you are right, it is pointless, but not because of anything I did, but because you can't keep your emotions in check.
Whatever you think my tone was, I was civil and I stuck to the issues instead of making it about you as a person.
However, it's probably partially my fault as well. I suppose my tone might sound "snotty" at times, just because I'm so blunt. Rest assured that it's an ND thing and not about you personally. When I'm trying to get to the bottom of something, my focus becomes so singular that I don't notice how I might be coming across. I could apologize for doing that, but that would mean I'm sorry about who I am, which I'm not. However, I am sorry your feelings were hurt by it. It was unintentional, I assure you.

Your attempt at a gotcha with my quote is an failure. It's a dispassionate (and IMO, truthful) observation and does not reflect feelings, only what I have observed. I can look at issues objectively without polluting them with personal feelings.

You're trying to be inflammatory with the "bonkers" stuff, so please omit the disclaimers and disingenuousness. What other women may or may not think is not an argument against my position.

I don't understand your question about which men and which women. It's general social commentary, not about anyone specifically.
So that answers your question about the "hive mind."

Yes, I'll admit that I can be overly negative at times. That perhaps comes from a long time spent working in an environment alongside predominantly male colleagues that are helping reduce crime. When you then encounter certain demographics that make massive generalisations about men and state that men dont want to help whilst simultaneously making excuses as to why they can't help themselves....well, it's easy to become a bit cynical.

Both men and women can and do help, and choosing not to is nothing more than a personal choice. Of course nobody is obligated to but it's a bit rich to demand that others step up whilst making excuses why you couldn't possibly help yourself - I'm talking in general here, not about any specific posters ITT.

I'm not at all offended. I'm ND myself and it's likely also why I'm so blunt and sometimes a bit pedantic. It was maybe a bit rude of me to call your comment 'bonkers' but it's certainly not a typically held view of men from my experience.

That's not the point I'm making. Issues like poverty, worklessness or substance abuse, don't cause domestic abuse nor are abusers from any particular demographic.

Abusers abuse because they're abusive, not because they're drunk. Domestic abuse rises during football matches for example, that's because abusers are drinking for hours after a match. Football doesn't make them abusive though and nor does alcohol.

Domestic abuse is about maintaining power and control and is a pattern of behaviour. The drunk hitting his wife after a match is not suddenly abusive because he's drunk. The abuse won't have happened in a vacuum.

Although some abusers are outright thugs, it's unusual for them to get drunk and attack anybody. They don't take on a pub full of men. They go home and beat up their partners in the privacy of their own homes. Interesting behaviour for someone so out of control.

I'm afraid a Dr on 100k is just as likely to be an abuser as Jim on the council estate. What abusers have in common is misogyny.

I don't understand your question about which men and which women. It's general social commentary, not about anyone specifically.
So that answers your question about the "hive mind."

This perhaps touches on why I think class analysis is mostly useless as anything but an extremely broad analytical tool. I don't think it's possible to really use it to examine things on any level that is likely to lead to a workable solution.

It's like when some feminists say "oh, it's all male violence". Technically yes, but things like honour killings in Islamic communities require a different approach from things like family annihilation and more regular DV. Reducing it all to 'male violence' actually obfuscates the nuance and actively makes it harder to approach IMO.

Sidhu, on the issue of DV & poverty & substance abuse, I def agree there is a greater connection. It stands to reason: poverty, drugs, mental health issues (esp PTSD, thus greater rates among soldiers) will cause some men to vent their rage on people close to them, so their female partners and sometimes children.
Refuge's Sandra Horley's Power and Control is v powerful on the effect of DV, & her case studies mostly focus on middle class women. Their husbands sometimes abuse them violently or sexually, in a controlled way-no substance issues mentioned. But women are also mentioned who are never physically hurt, but crushed mentally through non-violent abuse. So I partially disagree w you labelling (I presume) violent DV as 'serious', as mental can be devastating too. But I do agree in the sense that violent DV crosses the most basic line of safety : physical, & can ofc course serious danger to health & life. Mental abuse can cause serious stress & suicide, but in a more insidious way.

Financial hardship is proven to increase the likelihood of IPV so I'm not sure I agree on that point. I think we have to be very careful to distinguish between statistics (which don't always tell the full story or give causation so much as correlation) and between things like feminist theory which is often just opinions despite many people seeming to present it as fact.

Regarding abuse, you're not an abuser until you actually commit an act of abuse, so it's not a straightforward dynamic. If say alcohol is the catalyst that results in somebody committing an act of violence which they wouldn't otherwise have committed then it becomes a critical factor even if abusive tendencies were there prior to the manifestation.

A lot of 'non-violent' people have the capacity for violence in the right circumstances so synergistic factors are an important consideration IMO.

Aaaand you start off with something both personal baseless, which more to the point evades answering a direct question yet again.
Is this going to be the running theme about how you answer questions? I prefer a straight, on point answer, not editorializing.
Not to mention, what is with the childish asides like "looool" in the middle of a debate? Come on now. You're not an adolescent, surely.

Look, the question was not about what % of men are good and what % are bad, which neither of us can possibly know. It was about where one can find men willing to work with women towards change. If you don't know, just say so instead of all this tap dancing.

I was not inviting yet more words in an already endless sea of often self-contradictory ideas about feminism. 🙄 How you feel about feminists does not interest me. However, my suggestion would be that if you don't like them, maybe you would feel better if you avoided them. Just a thought.

Btw, I did work in a job where I was in danger an needed physical strength. That's neither here nor there and not particularly interesting, and I'm not sure why you brought the issue of jobs up, unless it's just as an excuse to toot your own horn about your job. Toot away, but please don't do it in response to questions that have nothing to do with you or your job. Feel free to start a thread about how awesome you are because of your former job though.

nobody is quicker than them to completely absolve themselves of any responsibility to help.

Oh, so true. Rape crisis centers and DV support centres are staffed solely by anti-feminist women. But seriously, Sidhu, this is a completely false claim, so much so as to enter the realm of absurdity.

Unless you can come up with a decent argument rather than just endless, pointless complaints about feminists that are based on nothing but personal resentment (presumably because you were accused of being a handmaiden/dick panderer or whatever) then that's about it for me. I'm out of patience.