Is there a problem with Islam?

[LeafBud7]

My answer to this has always been, no, even if there are problematic elements within Islam especially for women, you can say the same about any culture or ideology, or religion.
I have been reading and thinking more about this recently, and i'm going round in circles. My brother in law is Muslim, and I am going to ask him what he thinks when I next get the chance for a proper chat, also a female colleague who I think would be open to talking about this..
In the meantime, what do you think? Is it as I have always thought, above, or is there something potentially within the religion what makes it more problematic, or is it not the religion itself, but more how things evolve in some communities? Is it all just a imaginary "problem" used by racists to whip up a storm?
One thing is for sure, it seems one is not really allowed to ask these questions in some circles, without being accused of being racist, which I find really unhelpful.

That should be barbaric to everyone other than paeodophiles, surely!

Unless you are very close, I'd be wary of conversations that can come across as expecting an individual to be the voice of such a large group. Every group has a mix of perceptions, no faith is a monolith.

Every institution has issues. Islam has multiple institutions within that which use the texts and the power of being an Islamic institution to do vile things. It should be challenged just like if it was any other institution, whether or not the root of it is from Islam or another cultural institution that is using Islamic institutions to have the power to do so.

It makes no sense to go on about early Islamic practices to today as a reason why Islamic institutions shouldn't be challenged.

How is it the religion that's the problem.

Because religions include social institutions that give people social power. That social power uses the religion to keep their power and sway others people and at times other institutions into certain actions. Saying those who do evil are just innately so is hubris that you could never be evil and erases how institutions, religious and otherwise, incentivise our behaviour.

Similarly you’d never think Christianity also believed in child marriage (for women) because the Vatican and CoE have ensured Bible translations don’t include it.

Plenty of corruptions within churches and people using the power of Christian institutions to do vile things, but it has nothing to do with the Vatican or CoE ensuring anything about Bible translations these days. It's been standard practice for some time for translations to involve people from a range of religious and non-religious backgrounds. The Vatican approves of many translation they had nothing to do with. The CoE has little involvement in translations. While there has been issues with both standardizing the use of being open on which translation they're using when quoting, they aren't really hiding secrets about child marriage. It's quite there in the texts, as it is in related texts. It's also there quite blatantly in Jewish texts that Christianity uses part of - one of the most obvious examples is Moses gets really angry that in capturing a settlement that boys and women were saved, and orders the murder of everyone but the virgin Midianite girls, because God was pissed at an event with a Moabite woman. This is oddly a rare example where Moses was very in his rage and God wasn't (most of the time it was Moses trying to have God show mercy), and this is part of a chapter that earlier discusses that women captives were given one month to mourn their losses before they become wives (and in other Jewish writings, if they continued to mourn, they could be executed). It's there in any translation, none of the churches or synagogues hide it, most won't argue it was a good thing we should emulate, but gloss it over a historical act of war that shows how they had fallen in war from what is called out in the text as the typical practice of just slaughtering all the men.

It's what those who get their social power from those institution are doing with what is in the texts that matters a lot more than texts from thousands of years ago having vile stuff in them.

You'd hope so.

You don't know what I've studied or what I know.
No child should be married regardless of religion it's disgusting, but don't blame the religion for something that people do.
People have choices as to what they do their religion is not to blame for that.
There are plenty of sick people who use their positions to abuse others religion has nothing to do with it.
Also this is nothing to do with the ops post, which was made up to stir it up im guessing.

Of course there is. You don’t need a degree in Islamic studies, just look around the world. The countries with the worst records on human rights are Islamic countries.

that’s not to say women’s rights are perfect elsewhere, but now where is as bad as Afghanistan. I can’t think of a Christian country where the government are beating women to death for showing their hair? Any Christian countries where women aren’t allowed to drive?

if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. Maybe in the mists of history parts of the Islamic world were progressive for the time, but not now.

FFS, you’re all so busy being open minded and non judgemental your brains have fallen out.

That should say worst record on women’s rights, not human rights

Furthermore Iraq is mainly shia different sect of Islam.

You don't know what I've studied or what I know.

Likewise. But you hadn't heard of Aisha and asked me who she was, so I can only assume you'd never heard of her or why ask?

Many Islamist countries have laws allowing child marriage because of Muhammad. As far as I know, he's a prophet that Muslims follow - therefore child marriage is carried out as part of the religion.

Of course men don't have to choose to marry a child but many do when it's culturally acceptable and legal.

If you say, ‘You can’t blame the religion, blame the people…’ but what is religion without people?

Thank heavens for some sense.

I didn't ask you who she was at all.
I asked you to prove what you said.
Anyway I'm not interested in debating with you.
But if people actually followed religion they wouldn't do bad things at all.

But if people actually followed religion they wouldn't do bad things at all.

They would argue that they are following the religion as it's written in holy texts.

But let's not debate. All the best.

There you go culturally acceptable culture and religion are two different things.
But no grown man or woman should be married to a child it's sickening.

There is a book called something like Behind the Veil..the price of freedom. It was written by an American journalist who managed the get accepted as an honorary man so she could talk to men and women in various Islamic countries. I read it hoping it would make me less sceptical about the wearing of face coverings and other restrictions on women. Unfortunately reading the book made me more concerned for the status and freedoms of the women and girls in those societies. So the problem is the stays if women and that is also a problem in some other religions..usually the extreme interpretations. No problem with how Islam is practiced in the uk as far as I can see although things like refusing to shake hands with a man and letting my friend’s husband into the house when he went to collect his daughter from a play date seemed odd.

But it's not written in any holy texts that its acceptable to do bad things.
All the best to you too and may I say a great amicable way to agree to disagree.

Basically, Islam is quite a bit younger than Christianity, so it’s still at the kind of Medieval stage. So, yes, as it’s currently practised across the world it doesn’t exactly mesh with modern day liberal values.
I do agree with a PP who noted the class divide too. The Muslim women I work with are forthright, career oriented, independent. The women I grew up around, a lot of them were very restricted as they came from poor villages and religion was the only education.
And actually, back in the 80s young girls were never seen in hijab, whereas now it’s usual, so restrictions seem to be getting worse.

And actually, back in the 80s young girls were never seen in hijab, whereas now it’s usual, so restrictions seem to be getting worse.

It's getting worse. I live in a very Muslim area and have noticed how many women now are covering their faces. It seems to be getting more regressive.

I've heard that this is because of a type of Islam called Wasabi which is fiercely pushed by Saudi. But I've been here decades and although you saw women in hijabs, you very rarely saw women in Burquas or face coverings.

Brave post, not that it should be. I am personally a bit uncomfortable that I'm ordered to 'tolerate' without question a religion that literally worships a warlord who promotes slavery, especially sexual slavery, and paedophilia. I can't see how it can be anything other than sexist when that's their idol. I am uncomfortable that we just have to accept children being taught that females must cover themselves and be 'modest' (I fucking hate that word) whereas men can stride about in shorts. And if they don't cover themselves thoroughly enough, they're asking for male attention, or worse. It's difficult to see the rampant sexism as just a few bad actors rather than inherent to the religion when it's so prevalent in every islamic society, including 'communities' in the UK. I grew up in a town with a very dominant muslim population and I've found it extremely difficult to come to terms with my own experiences.

PS I object to the 'christianity's the same' comments - it's not. Christianity has two testaments, the first which both the jews and the muslims share and is full of fire and brimstone and murdering non-believers, and then the second where Jesus wanders about being super-nice to everyone and preaching love and kindness. The second is what christians are supposed to follow, though that's definitely not always been the case. The muslims also have a third testament which is mohammed running about murdering and enslaving people and marrying a little girl. That's the one muslims are supposed to follow (though they also have their version of the first and second, just as christianity includes their version of the first - the old testament. Each religion's versions are a bit different though.) If you just followed the second (new) testament as literally as you could, you would be a pretty fantastic person. Not so much the first or third testament. Obviously people don't actually follow the texts literally all the time (which is why we see so many awful things done by christians which are in direct opposition to Jesus's teachings), but to say they're the same is just not true. I know some wonderful muslims who very definitely do not agree that women are second-class citizens, or that paedophilia's acceptable, or that non-believers should be murdered. But they do acknowledge that they've just chosen a more liberal interpretation of what's actually written. I personally feel we should be doing more to promote the voices of these types of muslim.

I find it utterly ridiculous that there is talk on this thread of sharia law coming to Europe

Where have you been? We have 30 Sharia Councils in the UK.

I always wondered about this, Kadijah was an extremely wealthy merchant. So she had a bunch of rights that weren’t granted to her by Islam, she had them before.

Almost every islamic country was forced to become islamic by "colonial invasions" by muslims " routinely committing barbaric acts to people who thought differently". They didn't just all wake up one day en masse and decide they fancied a new religion... Conversely, christianity hasn't generally been spread by brutal force directly, though christians have certainly done a lot of shitty things in the name of their religion.

Erm you forgot the people suffering because if Islamic extremism both in the west in the middle east and in Africa. Yes Christianity was brutal in it’s day but today Islam is the religion doing most of the damage in the world today. Doesn’t mean individual Muslims are responsible but ignoring that religiously motivated violence and oppression is occurring doesn’t make it go away.

This. I cannot believe how many people are over backwards to defend it.

Yeah this is also missing, the spread of Islam was a fundamentally colonialist and imperialist project.