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Feminism: chat

"Boys' poor mental health stems from feminism."

343 replies

Whattheduckery · 02/09/2024 11:00

Just been in a training session at my school and this is what the trainer has said. She followed with "because they don't have a club to be part of..."

It's made me so mad.

OP posts:
SilenceInside · 02/09/2024 14:57

@pigletinthewoods broken face parts is a risk of boxing. I'm not arguing that it isn't. I'm not arguing that boxing clubs should not exist, or that boys should not go to them. I wouldn't encourage my son to participate in boxing because of that risk, and the more dangerous risk of repeated blows to the head. Fortunately he is in no way inclined to want to box.

I took your comment to refer to activities for boys in general, not specifically regarding boxing in an organised and regulated setting.

biscuitandcake · 02/09/2024 14:58

Sdpbody · 02/09/2024 14:32

Men are a lot more likely to commit suicide.

Men are more likely to die from suicide but women actually attempt suicide more often than men. Men just use more final and deadly methods such as hanging and firearms.

The incarceration rates show we as a society are failing men somehow. If women were incarcerated at this rate, there would be an outcry, and rightly so.

Men are more likely to be incarcerated because they commit more crimes. They also commit more violent crimes that require tougher prison sentences.

Women who do commit murder are more likely to murder their DV partners after prolonged abuse. They very very rarely possess risk to the general population. Therefore they do not need to serve harsher sentences.

Women who murder their partners actually tend to get longer sentences than men who murder their partners anyway.

For lesser (but still bad crimes) effectively if you are a male criminal you are more likely to get away with committing crimes than if you are a female criminal. The flip side of this is if you are caught, charged and convicted you get a longer prison sentence. This probably is to do with possibly innate differences in male/female behaviour - women answer the door to policemen more, are more likely to let them in the house, are more likely to "cooperate with the investigation" are more likely to confess. So the police are more likely to pursue a conviction. However, confessing at the first opportunity etc is often taken into account.
Whether it's better to behave like a man (less chance of being convicted, longer sentence if so) or a woman isn't actually the issue. What matters is getting a decent lawyer. Which is why the main gender gap in the criminal justice system isn't male or female, black or white. It's rich or poor
We need to talk about that more. Blaming mens issues on a very nebulous definition of feminism won't help with legal aid cuts etc.

biscuitandcake · 02/09/2024 15:02

And boys need positive role models. They are unlikely to find them on tiktok. Because it's tiktok. Books still exist, outside still exists, they just have to find the role models rather than expecting them to be drip fed exactly what the think they need via the Internet or passively consumed films.

pigletinthewoods · 02/09/2024 15:05

@username44416

I can't remember the exact stats but I think 80% of films are about men and male stories. The majority of world leaders and famous people in history have been men, men hold the majority of powerful positions and the majority of heroes including superheroes are male.

How many more male role models do boys need? If you're talking about dad's then obviously, decent dads are fundamental to boys.

Yes, role models in the community.

I don’t think the narrative about ‘evil while males’ or ‘white male and stale’ is helping either but this is for a separate discussion.

I would like to see more emphasis on positive role models young men can interact with and learn from. You might think it’s not important but my experience as a teacher tells me it is.

Your view of boys is very reductive. If some boys are aggressive then of course their aggression should be channeled productively. I already mentioned boxing, but sports are great.

Well, I disagree. If acknowledging the material reality of hormonal fluctuations is reductive, then the same must be said about our perspective on women. Not all women experience PMS/menopuse severely but we rightly recognise that some do. I feel we as a society do the reverse for men: we only accept those who don’t experience the extremes and abandon those who do.

The reason why there's a focus on encouraging girls to say they're proud of being girls is because of deeply entrenched, centuries old mysoginy. Where everything associated with girls is weak, useless, boring, feeble and girly. Boys are brought up to believe girls are less than and girls internalise that thinking.

I think in the West it’s boys who grow up believing they are less. I don’t think it was wrong to elevate girls but I feel we’ve done it at the expense of boys, we’ve gone past the equality station.

We should bring all children up to be decent human beings who bring something positive to the world. We shouldn't bring children up to aspire to gender stereotypes but to be the best of themselves however that manifests.

This is true and I also believe that each person should be able to focus on their strengths irrespective of their sex.

I think you’re missing the point of positive role models for young men. It’s nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with learning how to navigate these teenage challenging years and not do anything stupid to jeopardise one’s future.

There’s a reason why we say ‘boy racers’ and not ‘girl racers’. It really isn’t all or nothing- we shouldn’t limit people’s choices in life to what’s traditionally expected of their sex but we also must not deny that biological differences play a role in shaping behaviour. Look at male v female career choices in Scandinavia, the most equal society.

Aggressive, entitled, dominating, bullying, regressive. You?

Same. If a woman behaves like this, is it also toxic masculinity?

MtClair · 02/09/2024 15:11

How many more male role models do boys need? If you're talking about dad's then obviously, decent dads are fundamental to boys.

Oh men have plenty of role models.
Whats missing are GOOD role models!!

And unlike @biscuitandcake i dint think teenagers are going to just find them just because they’re not a TikTok

MtClair · 02/09/2024 15:16

I agree with the PP who said what’s missing are the Youth Club there used to be.

But Inalso wish that MEN would take steps themselves to help sorting things.
I dint agree it’s up to women to organise clubs etc etc to help the poor boys/teenage boys do they can grow into responsible adults.

I think men need to step up and create those spaces for men. (To start with, this would be a really good role model action).
And they need to create those spaces for adult men too. Something to replace what used to be the role of pubs and men club before maybe??
Putting that down to feminism is just a way to avoid responsibility - things changed. We didn’t do anything to look after ourselves so now we are saying it’s your fault….

quantumbutterfly · 02/09/2024 15:22

WappityWabbit · 02/09/2024 14:24

The sex stereotyping on this thread is outrageous and frankly a load of bollocks!

No wonder the kids who don't fit into those ridiculous boxes assume they must be Trans and 'in the wrong body'. 😳

Oi, are you trying to pin that on feminists too. You'll never make it stick, we're terflon.

RamblingEclectic · 02/09/2024 15:23

Sounds like bad training and worth at least further discussion with the school clarifying what "because they don't have a club to be part of..." meant and what they wanted people to get from that training. There is a lot of weak training out there.

I do agree with others that schools do need to ensure that they're considering the needs of both sexes and the student feedback in their provision, and recognise sex as a protected characteristic does include both sexes, rather than what I've seen of schools acting like girls are a group that needs specific support while boys are simply individuals.

A few years back I was in a student discussion on safeguarding and wellbeing, and we had a then Year 9 boy speak up that mental health and wellbeing at the school was basically just aimed at and discussed about girls and all the other kids - 12 Year 9 kids evenly split between girls and boys - strongly agreed, emphatically, the kids had a great discussion on the issue and one was of the few points that got them all engaged.

When discussing this with the Safeguarding Lead, he made all the right noises about changes that were needed, and then turned around the next month to announce two new invite only extracurricular groups for girls with low self esteem. Nothing for boys. This last year, the budget includes wellbeing workshop for girls - I've checked and the same company offers one for boys, but it's not in there and the closest I can find is one term a year they bring in someone for boxing at lunch time, which I was repeatedly reassured is mixed sex.

When there was concerns about girls' outcomes and seeing the possibilities in science when compared to the national and city averages, there was a whole push to do multiple events for them as a group including very expensive trips, but when we discuss that working class boys had the lowest outcomes and aspirations for years in a row (in a school where that's the majority of boys), we're told that it's important to look at them all as individuals and there would be no effort or resources put to raise these for them as a specific group.

We can go on about how 'men need to solve men's problems' and "men and boys haven't kept up as women have grown, developed and become more independent", but in schools, it's a team effort, male staff can't do that on their own, and we should be looking at supporting all kids. The mindset that boys - who are children and so largely have no systemic power - are responsible for situations like I've seen which does impact their wellbeing is just as ridiculous and harmful as acting like it's a feminist-caused issue. It's too few resources being prioritised in a particular way that will always have an impact, whatever reasons for those choices are.

quantumbutterfly · 02/09/2024 15:27

@username44416

We should bring all children up to be decent human beings who bring something positive to the world. We shouldn't bring children up to aspire to gender stereotypes but to be the best of themselves however that manifests.

This

username44416 · 02/09/2024 15:33

Yes, role models in the community.

That's on men to step up and be good role models. Dad's need to effectively parent their children. There are plenty of male community leaders more so than women. There are loads of decent footballers, look at Rashford for example.

I would like to see more emphasis on positive role models young men can interact with and learn from. You might think it’s not important but my experience as a teacher tells me it is.

That's for men to sort out. There are a lot of men who mentor boys in youth work. This has been discussed for years but fundamentally boys need decent dads.

Well, I disagree. If acknowledging the material reality of hormonal fluctuations is reductive, then the same must be said about our perspective on women. Not all women experience PMS/menopuse severely but we rightly recognise that some do. I feel we as a society do the reverse for men: we only accept those who don’t experience the extremes and abandon those who do.

No, reducing someone to their hormones is reductive. Women don't get a free pass in society because of fluctuating hormones. If by extremes, you mean aggression, I already said that it should be channeled effectively.

I think in the West it’s boys who grow up believing they are less. I don’t think it was wrong to elevate girls but I feel we’ve done it at the expense of boys, we’ve gone past the equality station.

I disagree. When I look around I see a society run by and for men. Where men's needs are normalised and women's are marginalised. All positions of power in society are male and that's the same for every Western country. They are all patriarchal and they all have high levels of violence against women and girls.

We now have the added strain of gender ideology infringing on women's spaces including sports.

Considering they are brought up to feel lesser, men are doing very well for themselves.

I think you’re missing the point of positive role models for young men. It’s nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with learning how to navigate these teenage challenging years and not do anything stupid to jeopardise one’s future.

Surely a role model can be of any sex, I've certainly been inspired by some men. Secondly I agree that boys and girls need decent role models to aspire to. Dads are especially important for young boys.

There’s a reason why we say ‘boy racers’ and not ‘girl racers’. It really isn’t all or nothing- we shouldn’t limit people’s choices in life to what’s traditionally expected of their sex but we also must not deny that biological differences play a role in shaping behaviour.

I don't disagree that men have more testosterone than women and more testosterone can make some men act more aggressively.

Where we're never to agree is on gender essentialism. I don't believe that we're all predestined to behave in a certain way because of biology.

I believe socialisation largely effects how we behave, the way we're brought up and a whole host of differing factors. However, I don't deny that hormones can also be a factor.

Look at male v female career choices in Scandinavia, the most equal society.

I'm detecting Jordan Peterson here. It's true that in some Nordic countries such as Denmark, men tend to choose stereotypically male roles and women female roles. They have a sex segregation in the workplace. They also have a higher than average amount of domestic violence. It's evidently not the most equal society.

We don't have a completely gender neutral equal society in the world. Denmark is a patriarchal society where women and men continue to carry out traditional gender roles. They don't have much of a feminist movement there either.

Same. If a woman behaves like this, is it also toxic masculinity?

She would certainly be displaying toxic traits.

MushMonster · 02/09/2024 17:09

What she said makes zero sense to me, either taken literally or if I try to squeeze my brain to find out any "clubs" they may not be part of.
I think you need to tell someone about this indeed, what do they mean? Why are they relating boys mental health and feminism?

username44416 · 02/09/2024 17:12

MushMonster · 02/09/2024 17:09

What she said makes zero sense to me, either taken literally or if I try to squeeze my brain to find out any "clubs" they may not be part of.
I think you need to tell someone about this indeed, what do they mean? Why are they relating boys mental health and feminism?

It's a common trope at the moment to blame feminism for emasculating boys, in effect castrating them. I think by club she means boys don't have an equivalent to feminism. There is of course patriarchy or even men's rights activism but let's not derail.

MushMonster · 02/09/2024 17:26

Why is always someone trying to find stupid ways to curl the curl, which are always just wrong!

labamba007 · 02/09/2024 19:06

My husband knows it's his role (more so than mine) to teach my son how to be a good man. To stand up for what is right, to defend those who are weaker (not women, anyone) and how to treat women with respect and decency. He also play fights with him a lot (in a fun way!) and they do a lot of sport together. They tidy up and clean together too.

Men prefer to moan about feminists rather than teach their sons how to live in this world and behave like adults. It's on men's shoulders to teach their boys how to be mentally and physically healthy and contribute to society. I'm sick of women getting the blame for this. The fact that another woman has said it is all the more frustrating!

GrammarTeacher · 02/09/2024 19:10

Whattheduckery · 02/09/2024 11:00

Just been in a training session at my school and this is what the trainer has said. She followed with "because they don't have a club to be part of..."

It's made me so mad.

I'd be complaining about this. This is rubbish training. And just wrong

MsNeis · 02/09/2024 19:13

What a stupid thing to say...
I get that it's fashionable now to blame everything on feminism and I would expect such stupidity from a youtuber, but from a trainer?

Daleksatemyshed · 02/09/2024 19:18

Your trainer's worded this very badly, feminism isn't like the Tufty club where all women get automatic membership and become one big group mind. It grates on me a bit too because there's an air of the boys being left out but it's the girl's fault, by having a bit of female solidarity they're excluding the boys.

blackrabbitwhiterabbit · 02/09/2024 19:22

Several of my colleagues quote the same thing.

user1471538275 · 02/09/2024 19:46

@username44416 I'd say that boys always struggled more with conforming to educational rules/

https://www.younglives.org.uk/publications/corporal-punishment-schools

Boys were (and still are) much more likely to be subject to corporal punishment than girls - especially poorer boys.

Corporal Punishment in Schools | Young Lives

https://www.younglives.org.uk/publications/corporal-punishment-schools

username44416 · 02/09/2024 19:54

user1471538275 · 02/09/2024 19:46

@username44416 I'd say that boys always struggled more with conforming to educational rules/

https://www.younglives.org.uk/publications/corporal-punishment-schools

Boys were (and still are) much more likely to be subject to corporal punishment than girls - especially poorer boys.

Edited

I didn't notice boys struggling more as we had corporal punishment in school and they would have got a wallop.

Boys are significantly more likely to experience corporal punishment than girls. However, girls are often at greater risk of other forms of humiliating treatment and sexual violence. Children from poorer households are significantly more likely to be punished

In my primary school where we had corporal punishment, I was hit a few times a week. I didn't notice boys being hit more than girls.

However, poor children were punished significantly more than wealthy students.

When I got to secondary there was corporal punishment only for boys.

In my opinion, it is seen as more acceptable to physically chastise boys. Secondly as already stated, the sexes are socialised differently and girls are taught to be quiet and behave from a young age.

StMarieforme · 02/09/2024 20:00

I'd have argued that right there, right then.

Galadriell · 03/09/2024 13:41

I think it's a stretch to say it 'stems from feminism' but I do feel that modern feminism harms men in some ways (obv 'not all feminists').

Reading about VAWG and how women aren't safe to walk around you'd think women were the principle victims of violence rather than men being 70% of murder victims and being 4x more likely to be attacked.

Feminists usually answer this with "yeah, but who's doing killing/attacking?" The answer is 'not the male victims'.

I feel part of the issue is that feminism often descends into a blame game rather than an exercise in finding a solution, so the answer is always a defensive "don't blame us, it's you lot committing all the violence".

However, nobody is blaming feminists. They're just saying that as the principle victims men should get at least equal focus/resources, but they don't by a long stretch.

I always see posters on here claiming that male violence is usually men 'fighting outside pubs' or that it's 'gang violence'. This is just an outright lie when you look at the gentle young lad that was killed at the tube station the other day. A 13 year old boy and a man in a wheelchair were also fatally stabbed in the last week and the only reason I know is because another poster mentioned it. They commented that it'd be all over the news had it been a 13yo girl and I can't help but agree tbh.

username44416 · 03/09/2024 13:48

Galadriell · 03/09/2024 13:41

I think it's a stretch to say it 'stems from feminism' but I do feel that modern feminism harms men in some ways (obv 'not all feminists').

Reading about VAWG and how women aren't safe to walk around you'd think women were the principle victims of violence rather than men being 70% of murder victims and being 4x more likely to be attacked.

Feminists usually answer this with "yeah, but who's doing killing/attacking?" The answer is 'not the male victims'.

I feel part of the issue is that feminism often descends into a blame game rather than an exercise in finding a solution, so the answer is always a defensive "don't blame us, it's you lot committing all the violence".

However, nobody is blaming feminists. They're just saying that as the principle victims men should get at least equal focus/resources, but they don't by a long stretch.

I always see posters on here claiming that male violence is usually men 'fighting outside pubs' or that it's 'gang violence'. This is just an outright lie when you look at the gentle young lad that was killed at the tube station the other day. A 13 year old boy and a man in a wheelchair were also fatally stabbed in the last week and the only reason I know is because another poster mentioned it. They commented that it'd be all over the news had it been a 13yo girl and I can't help but agree tbh.

However, nobody is blaming feminists. They're just saying that as the principle victims men should get at least equal focus/resources, but they don't by a long stretch.

How is this possible in reality? Any man at any time, could be a victim of crime. What resources do they need?

Surely the answer is to tackle the male propensity to commit violent crime.

Violence against women and girls is largely tackled with charities women founded and raised funds for. They still largely depend on donations.

If men and boys stopped assaulting, murdering and raping, then we wouldn't need any resources.

sunflowersngunpowdr · 03/09/2024 13:59

I agree - deranged feminism is all about making any naturally masculine trait abhorrent (unless it's being embodied by a girl or a woman). And it works both ways. If a woman wants to lean in to her natural femininity then she's a weak but if a man displays feminine traits the he is a hero - even more so if he pretends to be a woman whilst he is doing it. People like you who make complaints against people who are factually right just because it opposes your world view and / or you are unwilling or unable to make your point via an adult exchange of ideas make me sick.

quantumbutterfly · 03/09/2024 14:02

sunflowersngunpowdr · 03/09/2024 13:59

I agree - deranged feminism is all about making any naturally masculine trait abhorrent (unless it's being embodied by a girl or a woman). And it works both ways. If a woman wants to lean in to her natural femininity then she's a weak but if a man displays feminine traits the he is a hero - even more so if he pretends to be a woman whilst he is doing it. People like you who make complaints against people who are factually right just because it opposes your world view and / or you are unwilling or unable to make your point via an adult exchange of ideas make me sick.

people like who?

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