Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: chat

"Boys' poor mental health stems from feminism."

343 replies

Whattheduckery · 02/09/2024 11:00

Just been in a training session at my school and this is what the trainer has said. She followed with "because they don't have a club to be part of..."

It's made me so mad.

OP posts:
quantumbutterfly · 02/09/2024 13:42

All sports require training, discipline, channeling of physical energy and often teamwork. Emphasis on more (sex separated) sports in schools would benefit all children. There would separately be a benefit to having mixed sex supervised exercises/games that encourage a bit of mutual respect.

Caveat - my son has a disability, only recently diagnosed, that hampered him in many sports when younger and knocked his confidence. He has excelled at swimming and enjoys other sports in a non-competitive environment.
Schemes that help children to find a sport that fit their strengths should be funded and will pay dividends to future society.
More schools should have sports centres on site that are available for public use outside school hours to offset the cost of building them.

SilenceInside · 02/09/2024 13:42

I think I must have missed the female violence epidemic caused by PMS and menopause, and the ability to avoid responsibility by claiming that as a mitigating factor in a criminal defence.

biscuitandcake · 02/09/2024 13:43

username44416 · 02/09/2024 13:24

Boxing has been used for decades in the East End to reduce youth violence. It's a sport that requires intense training and discipline and has a sense of community. It engages young men and boys and keeps them off the streets. It helps them expend a lot of energy and aggression.

I agree actually. The problem is those places are expensive to run, and need quite committed people available to run them. Which risks pricing boys who would really benefit out.
The other issue is that it can be intimidating to boys/young men even though they would never admit that. Whereas watching Andrew Tate talking about fighting online, or playing computer games etc requires much less social risk and effort. That has really been what's changed the most it's much easier to avoid social awkwardness nowadays but that also means they lose out on the experience of facing their fears.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 02/09/2024 13:44

username44416 · 02/09/2024 11:30

I would have asked her what, in her opinion, feminism is. She seems to believe it's elevating girls at the expense of boys.

You should have asked if boys not belonging to a club, is the reason behind the national emergency we have in violence against women. Ask what club would stop that.

Definitely make a complaint.

This

biscuitandcake · 02/09/2024 13:45

Doing exercise especially physically aggressive exercise does cause testosterone spikes but it goes back down afterwards. It's natural and not like injecting steroids.

username44416 · 02/09/2024 13:51

Lavender14 · 02/09/2024 13:20

If you have a set of 6 services solely serving young men in a community. Then through the push for greater access to services and opportunities for young women all 6 of those services change their policies and ways of working then you have 6 services serving mixed sex groups of young people and none solely serving young men. The need for spaces for solely young men is still there so unless additional funding is sought and new services created then yes there has been an erosure of services that provide male only spaces and do male focused intervention work. Obviously there is also the option of creating brand new separate services however, most funding providers look for inclusivity now meaning its much harder to find funding bodies who will fund single sec groups for male service users even if male professionals are there to do the work (never mind the discrepancy between male v female professionals in the community sector). Men need to step up and develop these funding opportunities and create better resources for young men that actually work. Ergo my point of two things being true at once. Feminism has eroded single sex male only youth work provision as the majority of services became mixed sex (not a criticism this was needed), and men failed to develop new services, train new male workers and create funding pots.

If you have a set of 6 services solely serving young men in a community.

What kinds of services? For example, women were banned from FA grounds until fairly recently but now have their own teams. They're not infringing on men's football by using the same grounds.

Then through the push for greater access to services and opportunities for young women all 6 of those services change their policies and ways of working then you have 6 services serving mixed sex groups of young people and none solely serving young men.

What kinds of groups do you mean? I was in the Venture scouts as a teenager and they were mixed sex. I believe they were formerly boys only. They didn't change the way they were run or their policies because girls joined, we all did exactly the same things.

The need for spaces for solely young men is still there so unless additional funding is sought and new services created then yes there has been an erosure of services that provide male only spaces and do male focused intervention work.

So you're talking about intervention work. You mean drugs, gang violence, knife crime, that kind of thing. I'm not aware of these resources becoming mixed, they usually get funding for specific areas of work.

Girls involvement in gangs is usually very different to those of boys. There's a lot of sexual violence against girls in gangs for example, which needs a different approach to males.

Obviously there is also the option of creating brand new separate services however, most funding providers look for inclusivity now meaning its much harder to find funding bodies who will fund single sec groups for male service users even if male professionals are there to do the work (never mind the discrepancy between male v female professionals in the community sector).

Some funding providers do look for ways of sharing funding such as joining other like minded groups but again, funding tends to be for specific uses. When you apply for funding, you have to be very clear about what you want the money for and why.

I don't see why a funder would refuse an application tackling male knife crime because some girls have been known to use knives. The money tends to go to where the need is. It would be great if you provided some specific examples.

Men need to step up and develop these funding opportunities and create better resources for young men that actually work. Ergo my point of two things being true at once. Feminism has eroded single sex male only youth work provision as the majority of services became mixed sex (not a criticism this was needed), and men failed to develop new services, train new male workers and create funding pots.

I'd argue that stretched funding and lack of resources have led to a need for shared facilities in some cases.

Feminism, in my opinion, is not about simply accessing male spaces. Women and girls wanted their needs catered for as well as access to male dominated occupations/ interests.

I could argue that Trans Rights Activists have actually been eroding single sex spaces for women, wanting access to refuges, changing rooms, lesbian groups and so on. Taking away women's rights for their own spaces. The inclusion of men in these spaces does change the dynamic and excludes many women.

pigletinthewoods · 02/09/2024 13:55

SilenceInside · 02/09/2024 13:42

I think I must have missed the female violence epidemic caused by PMS and menopause, and the ability to avoid responsibility by claiming that as a mitigating factor in a criminal defence.

If you only focus on the physical violence then yes, you will miss all the socially maladaptive behaviour by women. Other forms of aggression can also destroy lives and do. Moreso, more and more countries are reporting equalisiation of male vs female perpetrators of DV (see New Zealand and Candy). I recommend a book called ‘Woman’s inhumanity to woman’ by Phylis Chessler.

Males of most mammal species have developed to engage in physical conflict for the protection of their group. This is not going to get switched off just because now that we live in peace times and life is easy for us in the West, we brand it all toxic and put a lid on it. We should be doing more to help boys cope with what is the material reality of their sex for them.

Men already pay the price, the receive higher sentences for the same crimes in comparison to women and are a lot more likely to commit suicide. They underperform academically. The incarceration rates show we as a society are failing men somewhow. If women were incarcerated at this rate, there would be an outcry, and rightly so. Yet, whenever there is an armed invasion, we still expect them to die for their society.

MtClair · 02/09/2024 13:57

But to help boys learning how to channel their emotions (aggressivity and anger are emotions), it doesn’t have to be boxing. It doesn’t have to be a so called masculine sport.
A lot/most men learn to do that wo being enrolled in sports like this.

However, I do agree that sports and moving/running/jumping are essential (not just for boys btw).
Being involved in a sport is also excellent for MH. (Again boys and girls).

And YY to having spaces for (predominantly) men. Just there are some for (predominantly) women.
The issue I have with those is that, instead of having great male role model, they often end up support toxic traits. That’s from the all men groups taking all the decisions to supporting ideas women are somehow lesser than. Or simply that men aren’t supposed to cry etc… so instead of getting support (which means getting vulnerable) they get better at ‘being strong’. That’s not going to help theur MH.

How we can ensure those men spaces aren’t becoming a hot spot to shit masculinity, I’m not sure.

SilenceInside · 02/09/2024 13:57

Is that "socially maladaptive" behaviour criminal, or the "other forms of aggression"? What sort of behaviour do you mean, that is at the level of male violence?

"When there is an armed invasion"?? When will that be then? Madness.

FumingTRex · 02/09/2024 14:00

Shes completely wrong. The problem she is trying to describe is a lack of positive identity and positive role models for boys, especialky those who are not sporty. The solution is not to tear down girls just because they are doing better in this area.

MtClair · 02/09/2024 14:02

Yet, when there is an armed invasion, we still expect them to die for their society.

Except that doesn’t quite happen.
Being in the military is now a job, rather being a recruit.
Women join the army too. See what happened in Ukraine for example for what happens during a conflict.
And some countries like Israel have a military service for men and women.

pigletinthewoods · 02/09/2024 14:07

MtClair · 02/09/2024 14:02

Yet, when there is an armed invasion, we still expect them to die for their society.

Except that doesn’t quite happen.
Being in the military is now a job, rather being a recruit.
Women join the army too. See what happened in Ukraine for example for what happens during a conflict.
And some countries like Israel have a military service for men and women.

Edited

While women and children were allowed to flee, men under 60 have been forbidden from leaving and subjected to a compulsory draft:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/02/25/russia-invasion-ukraine-bans-male-citizens-leaving/6936471001/

Also, Clinton’s backpedaling on compulsory drafting of women was embarrassing.

There’s a film on YouTube called The Red Pill. Made by a feminist. Opened my eyes to a lot of issues males face that we just don’t talk about as a society.

username44416 · 02/09/2024 14:12

If you only focus on the physical violence then yes, you will miss all the socially maladaptive behaviour by women. Other forms of aggression can also destroy lives and do. I recommend a book called ‘Woman’s inhumanity to woman’ by Phylis Chessler.

I agree that women can do bad things and behave poorly. However men are responsible for the vast majority of dangerous crime including violence against women and girls.

Males of most mammal species have developed to engage in physical conflict for the protection of their group. This is not going to get switched off just because now that we live in peace times and life is easy for us in the West, we brand it all toxic and put a lid on it. We should be doing more to help boys cope with what is the material reality of their sex for them.

So you don't believe men have evolved in any way and it's impossible for men not to be aggressive? I imagine that all mammals will fight for the protection of their group, the women at the recent stabbing of those little girls, received stab wounds whilst protecting the girls.

What are we branding toxic? Male violence? In your opinion is violence a positive trait? We live in a patriarchal world rife with violence. Afghanistan is patriarchy on steroids, women aren't allowed to speak in public. Some male behaviour is very toxic and shouldn't be encouraged.

What should we be doing to help boys cope?

Men already pay the price, the receive higher sentences for crimes in comparison to women and are a lot more likely to commit suicide. They underperform academically. Yet, when there is an armed invasion, we still expect them to die for their society.

Not all boys underperform, I believe some white working class boys do. Women are more likely to suffer from mental health issues, commit less crime and less violent crime than men and bear the brunt of male aggression at home, in the workplace and on the street.

We do have a toxic masculinity problem, what should men do about it?

Lavender14 · 02/09/2024 14:13

username44416 · 02/09/2024 13:51

If you have a set of 6 services solely serving young men in a community.

What kinds of services? For example, women were banned from FA grounds until fairly recently but now have their own teams. They're not infringing on men's football by using the same grounds.

Then through the push for greater access to services and opportunities for young women all 6 of those services change their policies and ways of working then you have 6 services serving mixed sex groups of young people and none solely serving young men.

What kinds of groups do you mean? I was in the Venture scouts as a teenager and they were mixed sex. I believe they were formerly boys only. They didn't change the way they were run or their policies because girls joined, we all did exactly the same things.

The need for spaces for solely young men is still there so unless additional funding is sought and new services created then yes there has been an erosure of services that provide male only spaces and do male focused intervention work.

So you're talking about intervention work. You mean drugs, gang violence, knife crime, that kind of thing. I'm not aware of these resources becoming mixed, they usually get funding for specific areas of work.

Girls involvement in gangs is usually very different to those of boys. There's a lot of sexual violence against girls in gangs for example, which needs a different approach to males.

Obviously there is also the option of creating brand new separate services however, most funding providers look for inclusivity now meaning its much harder to find funding bodies who will fund single sec groups for male service users even if male professionals are there to do the work (never mind the discrepancy between male v female professionals in the community sector).

Some funding providers do look for ways of sharing funding such as joining other like minded groups but again, funding tends to be for specific uses. When you apply for funding, you have to be very clear about what you want the money for and why.

I don't see why a funder would refuse an application tackling male knife crime because some girls have been known to use knives. The money tends to go to where the need is. It would be great if you provided some specific examples.

Men need to step up and develop these funding opportunities and create better resources for young men that actually work. Ergo my point of two things being true at once. Feminism has eroded single sex male only youth work provision as the majority of services became mixed sex (not a criticism this was needed), and men failed to develop new services, train new male workers and create funding pots.

I'd argue that stretched funding and lack of resources have led to a need for shared facilities in some cases.

Feminism, in my opinion, is not about simply accessing male spaces. Women and girls wanted their needs catered for as well as access to male dominated occupations/ interests.

I could argue that Trans Rights Activists have actually been eroding single sex spaces for women, wanting access to refuges, changing rooms, lesbian groups and so on. Taking away women's rights for their own spaces. The inclusion of men in these spaces does change the dynamic and excludes many women.

Historically (where I am in the UK at least) many youth clubs, and then more specialist providers like the scouts or sports clubs were extremely male dominated. I understand the likes of scouts are still providing the same skill sets but they have changed their policy to allow female scouts to join as well as their name from "boy scouts" to "scouts". I'm not arguing that girls shouldn't be able to participate in the service they offer, of course they should, but I'm arguing that the dynamic of the space will be different with a mixed group of young people than a single set group and different challenges arise within that. The intervention work I'm talking about is much more nuanced than the high risk intervention work you've mentioned. (In my experience those types of groups also do better separate due to the trauma that usually accompanies those sorts of high risk behaviour). I'm talking about more specific work around just being a man, what does that mean, challenging gender and social stereotypes, creating ways for young men to promote their mental health, hold each other accountable, be respectful and safe in relationships and how to be a positive part of their community. Ideally it should be group led and responsive to the needs of the group eg body image, being a present and capable parent etc. I think that's something missing for a lot of young men. And because it's not exactly a clear cut "this is what we do" type of group as say a group addressing knife crime would be, then they do struggle funding wise. By comparison, there's lots of great funding available by charities for girls and women aimed at creating safe spaces for them (and rightly so).

"I'd argue that stretched funding and lack of resources have led to a need for shared facilities in some cases. Feminism, in my opinion, is not about simply accessing male spaces. Women and girls wanted their needs catered for as well as access to male dominated occupations/ interests." I totally agree with you on this and actually the way youth work historically was practiced really changed to make it more accommodating for young women and girls. Especially because in an ideal world it hinges on being youth led so practice should be reflective of the needs and issues of the group. In some youth centres at the beginning, female only rooms were created near the doors to make it easier for young women coming in to what was formerly a male space. Obviously we've moved on from that now as it's become common place but ultimately it did mean that boys and men did lose access to solely male spaces, especially in areas where as you say funding and resources were limited. I think its two halves of the same coin.

outdamnedspots · 02/09/2024 14:18

What, they don't have a club of men to be part of?

Way to go, blaming women for everything again.

She sounds horrendous.

Sdpbody · 02/09/2024 14:23

SilenceInside · 02/09/2024 13:42

I think I must have missed the female violence epidemic caused by PMS and menopause, and the ability to avoid responsibility by claiming that as a mitigating factor in a criminal defence.

Yes, quite.

I had no idea that 55 year old women were going round stabbing/shooting/raping men due to their hormones. The two tier journalism is clearly nor reporting this.

WappityWabbit · 02/09/2024 14:24

The sex stereotyping on this thread is outrageous and frankly a load of bollocks!

No wonder the kids who don't fit into those ridiculous boxes assume they must be Trans and 'in the wrong body'. 😳

Chicca1970 · 02/09/2024 14:29

Boys need strong & responsible men in their lives - fact.

Women cannot raise boys alone successfully without decent male role models being around.

I say this as a single Mum and a feminist.

pigletinthewoods · 02/09/2024 14:31

@username44416

What should we do to help boys cope? Perhaps recognise that they too need their own spaces and their own role models. And that, as we rightly now recognise PMS and menopause as material and important factors in women’s quality of life, we should pay the same attention to testosterone- mediated aggression? And give boys the space to learn to navigate this? Even if it includes a broken nose or a bruise here and there? And perhaps arrive at a place where a boy can say that they’re proud to be one? Girls can say it, why not boys? We should pay closer attention to developing positive male characteristics for boys to aspire to that take into account their developmental reality and don’t expect them to basically abandon their masculinity.

How would you define toxic masculinity?

Sdpbody · 02/09/2024 14:32

Men are a lot more likely to commit suicide.

Men are more likely to die from suicide but women actually attempt suicide more often than men. Men just use more final and deadly methods such as hanging and firearms.

The incarceration rates show we as a society are failing men somehow. If women were incarcerated at this rate, there would be an outcry, and rightly so.

Men are more likely to be incarcerated because they commit more crimes. They also commit more violent crimes that require tougher prison sentences.

Women who do commit murder are more likely to murder their DV partners after prolonged abuse. They very very rarely possess risk to the general population. Therefore they do not need to serve harsher sentences.

SilenceInside · 02/09/2024 14:34

@pigletinthewoods what is your definition of masculinity and of toxic masculinity?

I'll let my 12 year old know it's ok to break someone else's nose if he's feeling a bit aggressive due to testosterone changes in puberty, shall I?

pigletinthewoods · 02/09/2024 14:36

WappityWabbit · 02/09/2024 14:24

The sex stereotyping on this thread is outrageous and frankly a load of bollocks!

No wonder the kids who don't fit into those ridiculous boxes assume they must be Trans and 'in the wrong body'. 😳

I think you’ll find that it’s the denial of any differences between the sexes and reducing them to ‘stereotypes’ that has opened the door to this. Because if there is no innate difference, then we can basically choose who we want to be, right?

Perhaps you should research John Money and what happened to the victims of his experiments with ‘gender’.

Nobody here is saying that all boys/girls should/shouldn’t do X.

pigletinthewoods · 02/09/2024 14:39

SilenceInside · 02/09/2024 14:34

@pigletinthewoods what is your definition of masculinity and of toxic masculinity?

I'll let my 12 year old know it's ok to break someone else's nose if he's feeling a bit aggressive due to testosterone changes in puberty, shall I?

I think you’re not arguing in good faith.

If your 12 year old smashes someone’s nose in the street, it’s obviously not acceptable. Is it also not acceptable if it happens at a boxing club?

username44416 · 02/09/2024 14:50

pigletinthewoods · 02/09/2024 14:31

@username44416

What should we do to help boys cope? Perhaps recognise that they too need their own spaces and their own role models. And that, as we rightly now recognise PMS and menopause as material and important factors in women’s quality of life, we should pay the same attention to testosterone- mediated aggression? And give boys the space to learn to navigate this? Even if it includes a broken nose or a bruise here and there? And perhaps arrive at a place where a boy can say that they’re proud to be one? Girls can say it, why not boys? We should pay closer attention to developing positive male characteristics for boys to aspire to that take into account their developmental reality and don’t expect them to basically abandon their masculinity.

How would you define toxic masculinity?

Edited

What should we do to help boys cope? Perhaps recognise that they too need their own spaces and their own role models

I can't remember the exact stats but I think 80% of films are about men and male stories. The majority of world leaders and famous people in history have been men, men hold the majority of powerful positions and the majority of heroes including superheroes are male.

How many more male role models do boys need? If you're talking about dad's then obviously, decent dads are fundamental to boys.

we should pay the same attention to testosterone- mediated aggression? And give boys the space to learn to navigate this? Even if it includes a broken nose or a bruise here and there?

Your view of boys is very reductive. If some boys are aggressive then of course their aggression should be channeled productively. I already mentioned boxing, but sports are great.

And perhaps arrive at a place where a boy can say that they’re proud to be one? Girls can say it, why not boys?

The reason why there's a focus on encouraging girls to say they're proud of being girls is because of deeply entrenched, centuries old mysoginy. Where everything associated with girls is weak, useless, boring, feeble and girly. Boys are brought up to believe girls are less than and girls internalise that thinking.

We should pay closer attention to developing positive male characteristics for boys to aspire to that take into account their developmental reality and don’t expect them to basically abandon their masculinity.

We should bring all children up to be decent human beings who bring something positive to the world. We shouldn't bring children up to aspire to gender stereotypes but to be the best of themselves however that manifests.

How would you define toxic masculinity?

Aggressive, entitled, dominating, bullying, regressive. You?

AmandaHoldensLips · 02/09/2024 14:55

A staggering number of women harbour deeply internalised misogyny because the truth of the patriarchy is just too difficult for them to bear. It's the kind of denial that keeps the patriarchy propped up.

As Andrea Dworkin said.. “Many women, I think, resist feminism because it is an agony to be fully conscious of the brutal misogyny which permeates culture, society, and all personal relationships.”